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Episode Transcript
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Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local News to Keep You Rooted. Governor Gavin Newsom’s got a stack of bills sitting on his desk waiting for either a signature or his veto. Among them is SB 403, a bill that has divided the South Asian community. It’s a first of its kind attempt to ban discrimination statewide because of someone’s caste, a hierarchy based on birth. That affects South Asians all over the world. It’s an attempt by members of lower, more oppressed castes to get protections under the law.
Speaker 1 at townhall: As a Nepali, Hindu Dalit, I have experienced caste discrimination multiple times in California.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: But ever since the bill was introduced, there’s been a strong backlash from people who see it as an attack on their Hindu faith.
Speaker 2 at townhall: We [feel] like SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeing hatred in the hearts and minds of the people, which was very obvious from the gathering outside we just faced.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: And even though the bill has passed the legislature and just needs Newsom’s signature to become law, the two sides are not letting up. Supporters are currently on a hunger strike until Newsom signs the bill, and those against it are calling on the governor to veto it. So today we’re re-upping this episode that we did with freelance journalist Sonia Paul about the origins of this bill in Silicon Valley and why it has divided the South Asian community right here in the Bay Area. Stay with us.
Sonia Paul: When I was growing up, I was thinking less about caste and more about just having a mixed identity.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Sonia Paul is a freelance journalist based in the Bay Area.
Sonia Paul: My family comes from India and the Philippines. We grew up with multiple religions and so broadly speaking, one of the reasons I’m attracted to reporting on caste is that it’s reporting on a minority within a minority.
Harsha Pilli: I had one privileged caste manager.
Sonia Paul: Harsha Pilli is a tech worker. He’s at Microsoft right now. He was working for a company and he prefers not to name that particular company. He was hired by an American manager.
Harsha Pilli: And first here I had a good performance appraisal.
Sonia Paul: And then at one point an Indian manager came on board. One of the first questions he asked Harsha, Oh, how do you pronounce your last name?
Harsha Pilli: And is it Pill-eye? Or Pill-ee?
Sonia Paul: Depending on the pronunciation of his last name, it would indicate a different caste background.
Harsha Pilli: Pill-eye in South India is an affluent caste last name and Pilli, in our native language in Telugu, only the majority of Dalit communities have that last name.
Sonia Paul: At that time, Harsha didn’t think too too much of it. And then when he got his performance appraisals, he had really low marks.
Harsha Pilli: And for the last three months of that particular financial year, I had been given a zero, putting me in the not met category again.
Sonia Paul: A different manager came on board, not that Indian manager, and he once again had really excellent reports. And so he put two and two together and he thought to himself like, Oh, I think this is, you know, caste discrimination, whether consciously or unconsciously. This manager was biased against me.
Harsha Pilli: I know, because from my birth I have experienced these discriminations. It is one of them.
Sonia Paul: It’s our advice him to go to the legal department of his company and the legal department launched an investigation. But eventually that legal department concluded that there was no evidence of caste discrimination. He told me, like, I’m pretty sure it’s because of the absence of the term CAS and the ability for them to actually know what to look for. But he also said that he was willing to come forward about the story because he is now a citizen of the US.
Harsha Pilli: I wouldn’t have resorted. I wouldn’t have dared to escalate it because there are ramifications. Being on H-1Bs keeps a person vulnerable.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I mean, what is caste? Can you define it for people who don’t know what it is?
Sonia Paul: Caste was first mentioned in ancient Vedic scriptures, which have formed the basis of Hinduism. But over time, caste has traveled throughout South Asia, manifests in all South Asian religions.
Anupama Rao: Broadly, one can think about caste as a form of inherited privilege.
Sonia Paul: So Anupama Rao is a professor and a historian at Columbia University and she has written a book about caste.
Anupama Rao: It is a system based on privilege that draws on birth. That is, you are born into a particular caste in South Asia. It’s very much associated with purity and pollution and labor. And you have the manual or the laboring castes called should Rise, who are at the bottom of this four fold hierarchy. And then the community that I worked with, Untouchables, who actually fall outside the caste fold. They’re the ones who perform degrading labor. They actually are spatially segregated. They often live outside villages and so forth.
Sonia Paul: And it manifests in the way they might have access to jobs or be able to seek education.
Anupama Rao: Caste regulates social relationships that actually influences who you can eat with, who you can marry. So it is about diet, about sex and marriage.
Sonia Paul: And she talked a lot about how caste morphs and how it changes and how it’s constantly in evolution. It’s not one constant state when it comes to this kind of stereotypical pyramid that people might be familiar with When thinking about the caste system in a hierarchy, it’s typically divided into four groups. Broadly speaking, these four categories would be the priestly caste, the warrior caste, the merchant caste, the trader caste. But at the bottom would be Dalits. But they are actually technically outside that system.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: And is that the caste that Harsha is part of?
Sonia Paul: Harsha identifies as adult. It’s really interesting. Adalat is the term that people formerly known as Untouchables would prefer to call themselves. In Hindi, it translates to broken or crushed. But instead of it being an identity of oppression for them, it’s like a reclamation of that identity.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: And I know because this is such a sensitive subject, you were talking about how it’s just been so difficult for you to even find anyone to talk with you about this. Why is that?
Sonia Paul: I think when it comes to people who have actually experienced caste discrimination, there’s so much retaliation that they fear. A lot of them have precarious immigration statuses, whether they’re on H-1B visas or perhaps even seeking asylum here. And so to go and try to, like, file a discrimination complaint about caste isn’t within their wherewithal, especially because some of them have said that the absence of caste as an explicit category makes it very difficult for them to explain what’s happening. The disclosure of cars for people who come from historically marginalized caste communities is itself a form of discrimination. Being outed is a form of discrimination. And typically people can sort of figure out a person’s caste background from their last name. But it’s not always that easy. It’s not always that obvious. And so there tends to be a series of questions that someone might ask to figure out what that person’s caste background is. It’s a way of locating that person on a hierarchy.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Are there a lot of other stories like Harsha’s, where people here in the Bay Area are discriminated against because of their caste?
Sonia Paul: The lawsuit that first, you know, galvanize a lot of attention on caste discrimination in the US, especially within the tech industry, was the Cisco lawsuit that came out in 2020. And almost immediately after that lawsuit, a group called Equality Labs received more than 250 complaints of caste discrimination at all these prominent tech companies. Mehta Netflix, Google and so on.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Most of the public complaints about caste discrimination have come out of the tech world, in part because there are so many first generation South Asians working in Silicon Valley, many of them on H-1B visas. But Sonia says it’s not exclusive to tech. She’s also heard stories about nannies, field workers and other low wage workers who say they’ve faced caste discrimination, too. And now people want something to be done about it. One thing that has gotten people from both sides of this debate to really come out and speak on caste is this bill that State Senator Aisha Wahab has introduced. What is this bill and what would it do exactly?
Sonia Paul: Senator Aisha Wahab represents parts of the South Bay and East Bay. She’s Afghan-American. She’s Muslim, although she has said she is not particularly religious, but she grew up hearing stories about caste and caste discrimination.
Aisha Wahab: I am honored to announce SB 403 ending discrimination on the basis of caste, a civil rights Bill.
Sonia Paul: And I think with the complaints that have come forward, this was one of her first priorities when she came into office. SB 403 intends to clarify existing anti-discrimination laws in California to say that cars is explicitly prohibited.
Aisha Wahab: As a woman of color, I am. I’m incredibly sensitive to the ways in which other cultures, faiths and beliefs are depicted, perceived and discussed in mainstream media, politics and our laws. The movement to raise the issue and protect vulnerable individuals that are being discriminated against based on caste starts in my region and my district.
Sonia Paul: Senator Wahab felt it was necessary to explicitly name caste so that it’s clear, so that regulators know that it’s not allowed and there would be more processes in place for how to address caste discrimination. Since this bill came out, more and more people have come to their office thanking her, wanting this bill to pass. You know, we hear a lot about the push back, but she has gotten a lot of support from around the country and around the world.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: It sounds like there has been a lot of support, a lot of people coming out and sharing their stories and really advocating for this bill. A lot of Senator Williams constituents thanking her. But I know there’s also been a lot of backlash. What has the backlash been about exactly?
Sonia Paul: The introduction of this bill has opened up an old wound for a lot of people that has been festering for a long time, which is why are we talking about cars? This is something that we left behind. This is something that is not relevant to our communities. This is not something we teach our children. And this mostly comes from some Hindu groups and individuals. Although it’s not exclusive to the Hindu community, they tend to be the most vocal. And they’ll say that to talk about caste, to name it in our laws is going to be, quote unquote, Hindu phobic.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Why is that Hindu phobic to a lot of people?
Sonia Paul: They say even if caste manifests across South Asia, if it exists in all religions, it’s always popularly going to be understood with Hinduism. You know, when we teach about our religion or always talk about the caste system. Right. We’re it’s so much more than that. One of the first audio documentaries I ever reported actually was about a controversy among some Hindu activists and South Asian activists arguing over the correct representation of ancient Indian history in California middle school textbooks. And chief among their concerns was a representation of caste.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: People from the Hindu community. It sounds like our feeling targeted by this bill.
Sonia Paul: They say that. I think it’s also really interesting to think about when and why we’re hearing Hindu phobia. Like, I think there’s discrimination that exists against Hindus, but this rhetoric around Hindu phobia or things being anti-hindu have risen as we’ve seen more people from oppressed caste communities try to assert their rights. And critics of that term, Hindu phobia, because of the way we’re hearing it most often around caste protections, they believe that it’s merely trying to use racial and religious protections to deflect scrutiny away from caste.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Coming up, how caste and big feelings around SB 403 all came to a head in one Bay Area city. Stay with us.
Speaker at townhall: Good evening. I’d like to call the City Council meeting to order for April 18th, 2023.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I know you actually went to a Fremont City Council meeting in April. That really speaks to how strongly people are feeling about this. What was the vibe?
Sonia Paul: It was wild. I didn’t know really what was going to happen. I just heard. Oh. Fremont Mayor Lily May is going to issue a proclamation on Hindu phobia. And I was like, Wait, what? And I went, And there are crowds of people. I saw a lot of supporters of SB 403, the anti caste bill.
Protesters: [chanting]
Sonia Paul: Holding up their blue and yellow signs. And then I saw a lot of people holding white posters. They had like SB 403 equals Hindu phobia or Equality Labs is an anti-hindu organization. And as a crowd grew, it became like a ruckus. There were people arguing with each other, yelling at each other, saying, No, you be quiet. No, no, this or that. Like getting added about caste.
Montage of townhall: SB 403 is internalized hindu hatred, which has already been normalized in public discourse, will be institutionalized if passed. As a proud mom of two American kids attending Fremont Unified School District Schools, I love Fremont and I love this nation. My kids, like many of us Hindus, do not identify with caste. Our kids are not even aware of caste. The SB 403 bill is un-American and it violates our rights as Hindus. Dalit rights and human rights. And the city of Fremont must make a proclamation to address caste discrimination in the city. The lists are here are facing was tipped physical violence, housing discrimination and gender based violence. Instead of unity, we received harm and a violation of our rights. We feel like as SB 403 is polluting the harmony and the peace we know and seeding hatred in the hearts and minds of the people. It’s an attack on my faith and religion with a hidden agenda in the name of caste, and I strongly oppose this bill. SB 403. So, I’m here to talk about one of the symptoms of Hindu phobia, which we are seeing as a bill named SB 403.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: It kind of sounds like a lot of people would actually rather not see caste be a thing here in the US.
Sonia Paul: It’s interesting because we have like in the U.S., we’re very familiar with the myth of the model minority. And I think one of the things that we’re seeing in the way people are grappling or fighting is them also kind of grappling with this myth of caste-lessness that has so far been very dominant in our discussions of minority and diaspora communities. And it’s been in the last handful of years that we are hearing more from people from oppressed caste backgrounds who maybe didn’t have a voice in these immigrant communities before. And people on both sides of this bill, for example, SB 403. I’ll ask them like, why? Why do you believe the way you do? Why are you caught up in this movement? Or why don’t you think this bill should pass? They’ll say like, I don’t want the shadow of caste to be on my children. I don’t want them to have to deal with caste. And so there’s this catch 22 of in order for caste not to be relevant, we have to make it illegal for caste discrimination to occur. What you do when you do that, you automatically make caste relevant.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: You put it to the forefront, even though a lot of people would rather it not be there, I guess.
Sonia Paul: Yeah, and the word itself carries a lot of baggage for people. They can’t even bring themselves to see the word caste. They will try to argue who actually brought caste to India. What it’s what is its real origins? You know, when people see that caste discrimination doesn’t exist. It’s a viewpoint that comes from having the inherited privilege of not having to think about caste or feel that’s relevant to your life.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Well, speaking of this bill, what’s next for it? Does it have a chance at all at becoming law?
Sonia Paul: Earlier this spring, there was a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing about this bill. It was a unanimous vote. Yes, let’s move the bill forward. Then there is a vote in the Senate and only one person dissented. In June and July, you’re going to have hearings in the assembly. And I think we’re going to see more interesting reactions to this bill. There’s already a representative in Silicon Valley, Rishi Kumar. He has come out and he says like it’s going to promote Hindu phobia. It is irrelevant and it’s going to be divisive. I think we’re waiting to hear more from other representatives. Senator Wahab has said that some of her colleagues are a little bit irritated at her for introducing this bill because as soon as she introduced it, their offices were slammed with phone calls, like numbering in the thousands of people vocalizing their support or vocalizing their dissent about the bill.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: I know Aisha Wahab has also gotten some like really nasty threats too, right? Can you talk about that?
Sonia Paul: She and her colleagues have faced so much retaliation, death threats, abuse, rape threats. She had to be fitted for a bulletproof vest. She said she’s had people follow her and her colleagues as they walk back to their car. People also try to denigrate her identity. They’ll call her a Wahhabi. You know, for her last name, you know, being Muslim or jihadis or say, why don’t you introduce a bill about, you know, Muslims or something? Why are you going to denigrate Hindus?
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Well, I mean, you’ve been wading through all of this controversy, Sonia, as a reporter, and I want to come back to you. I mean, you’ve been reporting on this for years. What has it been like for you to report on caste in the United States?
Sonia Paul: It’s been interesting and frustrating. And mind boggling. But I think there’s so much energy around this. There’s so much shame around cast. There’s so much drama around cars. And so I’m also learning how to be patient for the people I’d like to interview. I would also say on a broader level, it makes me think just about the stories we tell ourselves and the histories we know about ourselves and our communities and our families. Because I can understand, on the one hand, people who emigrate to a new country and they want to leave whatever shames of their old country behind. So this argument about the relevance of caste or why why are we talking about it? I don’t practice caste or caste discrimination. Yes. But as a few people have also told me, and as we’re seeing when we hear about complaints of discrimination, you have to address this on a systemic level. And I think because earlier generations of South Asian immigrants, especially Indian immigrants, have come from historically privileged caste communities. I think it’s a really interesting question. What does it mean when you have multiple generations of immigrants who have different experiences of being an immigrant? Because most of the allegations of caste discrimination are coming from first generation immigrants. Look at the demographic change of this region, given where the complaints of caste discrimination are so far coming from and the demographic changes that we’ve seen in the Bay Area, it’s a Bay Area story.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: Sonia, thank you so much for your reporting and for sharing it with us. I appreciate it.
Sonia Paul: Yeah, Thanks so much for having me on.
Ericka Cruz Guevarra: SB 403 passed the state Senate by a vote of 31 to 5. At the end of the day, the final version of the bill is a little more watered down than originally intended. For one, caste wouldn’t be explicitly banned as its own protected class in anti-discrimination laws. Instead, it’s tucked under ancestry. That was Sonia Paul, a freelance journalist, editor and instructor for Uncuffed. Since this episode first published, Sonia has done more reporting on this topic. She actually did a piece for Mother Jones on the politics of the bill. I highly recommend that read. I’ll leave you a link to it in our show notes. This episode, first published in June of this year. It was cut by senior editor Alan Montecillo, scored by me and producer Maria Esquinca, who added all the tape and the interview that you heard with Harsha Pilli originally aired on the BBC’s Documentary podcast. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.
