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Join host Olivia Allen-Price to explore all aspects of the Bay Area – from the debate over \"Frisco\", to the dinosaurs that once roamed California, to the causes of homelessness. Whether you lived here your whole life, or just arrived, Bay Curious will deepen your understanding of this place you call home.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Looking for more ways to get involved? Play our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious#hearken-10392\">trivia contest\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">sign up for our newsletter\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7325022/e2726178469b\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">take our latest survey\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">check out our book\u003c/a>.","blurbImageAlt":"Bay Curious","blurbImageUrl":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","previewID":"news_11156856","hasSponsorLogo":true},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"iframeId":"656","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Voting Round"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Voting Round","iframeId":"4627","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/post-list","attrs":{"layout":"cardsRecent","query":"posts?series=baycurious&queryId=27c8bbceb8","title":"Stories","seeMore":true,"sizeBase":6,"sizeSeeMore":6},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Monthly Trivia Contest","summary":"Thanks for playing our trivia game, sponsored by Sierra Nevada Brewing Company! From all correct entries, we'll randomly select one winner each month for the prize pack of Bay Curious and Sierra Nevada goodies (Approximate value $50).","iframeId":"10392","className":"full-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/listen-and-subscribe","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/email-signup","attrs":{"newsletterSlug":"baycurious"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":{"heading":"Contact / Follow"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Follow Us"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies","attrs":{"heading":"The Bay Curious Team","bioType":"white"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_2562-e1572650381510.jpg","mediaAlt":"Olivia Allen-Price","name":"Olivia Allen-Price","position":"Host / Editor","bio":"Olivia is a big believer in the value of public-powered journalism. She helped launch \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> as a radio series in 2015, then turned it into a podcast in 2017. Before working on the show, Olivia was an engagement producer at KQED. She's also worked at \u003cem>The Baltimore Sun\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Virginian-Pilot\u003c/em>. When not tethered to a computer by a pair of headphones, Olivia loves running, playing with other people's dogs and taking weekend trips around California. Follow her on \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://instagram.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Instagram.\u003c/a>","link":"/author/oallenprice"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a6a567574dafefa959593925eead665c?s=600&d=https://i.imgur.com/u9MDiPR.png&r=g","mediaAlt":"Katrina Schwartz","name":"Katrina Schwartz","position":"Producer","bio":"Katrina grew up in San Francisco and loves learning new things about her hometown. She helped pilot the first iteration of\u003cem> Bay Curious\u003c/em> when it was just a radio feature. Before joining the team, Katrina reported on education for \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> and was a finalist for the Education Writers Association beat reporting and audio storytelling awards. She co-hosts the \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> podcast about the future of learning, and has been making radio since 2010. When she’s not reporting, Katrina loves reading, the ocean and the mountains, and playing ultimate frisbee.","link":""},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/ad","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/programs","attrs":{"title":"We Also Recommend","programIDs":["mindshift","rightnowish","soldout","onourwatch","thebay","forum"]},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1717716140,"format":"standard","path":"/podcasts/baycurious","redirect":{"type":"internal","url":"/podcasts/baycurious"},"audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"featImg":"root-site_21263","label":"root-site","isLoading":false}},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_11992428":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11992428","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11992428","score":null,"sort":[1720692058000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","publishDate":1720692058,"format":"standard","headTitle":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1720649629,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":113,"wordCount":3939},"headData":{"title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","description":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","datePublished":"2024-07-11T03:00:58-07:00","dateModified":"2024-07-10T15:13:49-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9653617813.mp3?updated=1720635145","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_28250","news_8"],"tags":["news_27626","news_2780","news_6627","news_20331"],"featImg":"news_11981905","label":"source_news_11992428"},"news_11991921":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11991921","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11991921","score":null,"sort":[1719482480000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","title":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay?","publishDate":1719482480,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for a culinary treasure: Dungeness crab. This winter, as the boat motored through the bay, Teaff wondered what other riches sat down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is at the bottom of the bay?” Teaff asked Bay Curious. And then, “I wonder if there’s any treasure down there?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the treasure front, the simple and tragic answer is: No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for precious metals, gems or valuable keepsakes, you probably won’t find them at the bottom of the bay. According to bay researchers and maritime experts, while there may be specks of gold mixed in with sediment that flowed into the bay during the Gold Rush, it’s not really worth salvaging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Literally no treasure to be found in the bay at all,” maritime archeologist, historian and author James Delgado said. “Other than history — that either can be studied or left to slowly sit there and…rust in peace.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, so no treasure. But let’s take a closer look at what is down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘The Titanic of San Francisco Bay’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To Delgado, and maybe to many of us, history \u003ci>is\u003c/i> the treasure. What the bay lacks in pirate booty, it makes up for in historical artifacts — like shipwrecks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a decade ago, Delgado mapped shipwrecks using sonar as the Director of the Maritime Heritage Program for NOAA, the U.S. agency tasked with monitoring our weather and oceans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s probably several dozen [shipwrecks] that sit in and around the entrance to the bay and in the bay itself,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2014, Delgado’s research team and collaborators used underwater robots to relocate one of the bay’s deadliest wrecks: a steamship named the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">west of the Golden Gate Bridge\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991926\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_j07-18337_gl.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991926\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white drawing of four masted ship on rough seas.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-800x473.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1020x604.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-160x95.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1536x909.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A painting of the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park safr_21374_j07-18337_gl)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1901, the ship arrived at San Francisco Bay in thick fog after a more than two-month voyage to China, Japan and Hawaii. It carried 210 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants. Around 5 a.m., the steamer headed through the fog into Fort Point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In total, 128 people died in the wreck. Many of the survivors were saved by early morning fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991928\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991928\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of desolate looking people surrounded by their belongings.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1158\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-800x483.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1020x615.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1536x926.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Survivors from the City of Rio de Janeiro shipwreck gathered at Baker Beach. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The large iron-hulled boat was swallowed by the bay. About a year and a half later, its pilot house floated to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In it was the skeleton of the captain who was identified by his gold watch,” Delgado said. “Its chain had tangled in his ribcage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that’s it for gold in the Rio. The only metal of value left now is tin, and that’s not worth salvaging, Delgado said. The ship is covered in mud and located near dangerous currents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This turns out to be true for many of the wrecks in the bay. The cost of reaching them could be greater than anything you might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The bay’s sunken ghost towns\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Why do ghost towns [fascinate] so many people?” asked Christopher Edwards, a park ranger at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/index.htm\">San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park\u003c/a>. “For me, a shipwreck site has that same fascination because it was where people existed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One wreck that stands out to Edwards is that of the Frank H. Buck, which now lies \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">off Lands End\u003c/a> in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On March 6, 1937, the oil tanker was making its way to San Francisco Bay from down the coast, in Ventura. It was a foggy day as the Frank H. Buck entered the Golden Gate. Nowadays, ships use \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/marine-radar\">radar\u003c/a> to detect each other in bad weather. But back then, the Buck just had its foghorn, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SS President Coolidge, a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers, headed West towards Hawaii, then Japan, which was nearby. Its foghorn was also blaring. But sound can bounce off the terrain near the Golden Gate and make it difficult to know precisely where you are, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both ships reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge. There, they collided, nose to nose. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991932\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 695px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991932\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo from above looking down on a large ship beginning to take on water and sink.\" width=\"695\" height=\"760\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg 695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2-160x175.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 695px) 100vw, 695px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Frank H. Buck’s front decks awash after the collision. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain shouted a plan over to the Buck captain. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> quoted him saying: “When we collided I megaphoned Captain Kelly of the Frank H. Buck to hold her where she was. ‘I’ll keep my bow in you,’ I said, ‘so you’ll stay afloat.’ Or words to that effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain held his position until rescue boats and the Coast Guard could get everyone off the Buck. Then, the Coolidge backed away. The body of the Frank H. Buck, which was more than 400 feet long, began sinking and was carried to the rocks off Lands End.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 985px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a half sunk ship just off shore.\" width=\"985\" height=\"770\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg 985w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-800x625.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-160x125.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 985px) 100vw, 985px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Buck sank, nose down, near Mile Rock Lighthouse. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park’s Visitor Center has a life ring from the Buck on display. Edwards hopes such artifacts will help visitors picture a seafaring life that, centuries ago, could have been theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Mud as treasure? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond shipwrecks, environmentalists say the bay floor is home to an even more unlikely treasure: mud. For a long time, mud was seen as a problem for the bay, said Julie Beagle, an estuarine geomorphologist. It had flowed into the bay from \u003ca href=\"https://ca.water.usgs.gov/pubs/2013/BarnardEtAl2013.pdf\">urban development, watersheds and mining\u003c/a> from the mid-1800s through the 1900’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The idea of keeping sediment out of the bay was really the guiding principle for a long time, as it should be,” Beagle said. “Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish, and [it] really clogged important spawning habitat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-011-9382-x\">Research around 2011 showed\u003c/a> that their plan was working. Between development regulations and some natural fluctuations, less sediment was floating in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/stormsurge-stormtide.html\">storm surges\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/saltmarsh.html\">absorbing floodwaters\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep,” Beagle said. “We need to maintain it in the system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To build the marshes back up and fortify them against sea-level rise, scientists would need a lot of mud — approximately \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfei.org/sites/default/files/biblio_files/Sediment-for-Survival-factsheet_1.pdf\">450 million cubic yards\u003c/a>, by some estimates. Beagle started working for the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge mud in ports so ships can navigate the bay. There, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They recently launched a pilot project to try building up Bay marshlands with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay, along with collaborators from the U.S. Geological Survey and other local and government partners. It’s the first time this method is being tested in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is such a place-based thing to me,” said Beagle, who was born and raised in Oakland. “It really requires understanding of the watersheds, of the landscape, of the people, of the values.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December, the team moved 90,000 cubic yards of dredged sediment from the Port of Redwood City to the shores of Eden Landing, an eroding marsh near Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Stories/Article/3644567/shallow-water-strategic-placement-pilot-project-kicks-off-in-san-francisco-bay/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A square, blue modern looking boat chugs out into the bay.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1356\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-800x565.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1020x720.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1536x1085.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A dredge loads a boat with sediment, destined for eroding marshlands at Eden Landing. \u003ccite>(Brandon Beach/US Army Corps of Engineers)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If the pilot study achieves its goal, the marshes will stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise. Next, Beagle hopes to test the method at other bay marshlands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really this move, nationally and internationally toward nature-based adaptation to all the climate risks that we face,” Beagle said. “Because we know that the way we’ve done business for the last 150 years is not going to solve the problems of the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the bay, just maybe not the type you expected. But if the artifacts down there tie us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered fishing trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for Dungeness crab. They leave before dawn and motor out through the Bay, under the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>There’s crazy stuff going on. I mean, there’s all kinds of water and it’s moving in all directions, and you can just tell the bay is just deep there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This winter, Brian stood on the boat and looked into the swirling abyss below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Riding on the Bay going, there’s a lot of water that moves through here. And what’s underneath? I know there’s fish, what else is there? So it was just what’s underneath the water?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Are there maybe … shipwrecks down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>And then of course, you know, the next question is, oh, boy, I wonder if there’s any treasure down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Treasure like precious metals, gems, valuable keepsakes. If you ask Brian to answer his own question, he says:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>I think that it’s probably just full of mud down there. But boy, I’d like to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme song starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Brian wrote to Bay Curious, to learn more about what’s at the bottom of the Bay. Today on the show, we’ll hear about two shipwrecks that haunt Bay Area lore. Plus, we’ll go searching for treasure and find it in something … unexpected. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Like many of us, KQED Reporter Anna Marie Yanny lives a short walk from the Bay. Like our question-asker Brian, she was eager to find out what’s down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The first thing that came to my mind was the beginning of the \u003ci>Little Mermaid\u003c/i> movie. Mermaid Ariel and her fish friend, Flounder, are diving in a shipwreck looking for treasures. Could there be any wrecks at the bottom of the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[The Little Mermaid movie clip starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Flounder:\u003c/b> Ariel, wait for me!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ariel:\u003c/b> Wow, have you seen anything so incredible in your entire life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I had to talk to James Delgado. He’s a renowned maritime archeologist and has worn many hats in the field. And back in the 70s, he was the first historian for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>Those early years at the park were magic because we were literally just new as a national park, and everything needed to be done. So, we conducted wide-sweeping inventories and explorations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>He dove in the muddy waters of the bay in search of shipwrecks. And decades later, he mapped them with federal researchers, using sonar. I asked him just how many wrecks are in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>There’s probably several dozen that sit in and around the entrance to the Bay and in the Bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>A few wrecks stand out to him and other historians. He tells me about one of the deadliest, a steamship called the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. Named for the city in Brazil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>James and a team of researchers and underwater robots used sonar to relocate this wreck in 2014. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel west of Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was February 1901. The Rio was sailing to San Francisco from Asia \u003ci>[sounds of waves and wind] \u003c/i>after an over two-month voyage to China, Japan, Hawaii. It was a big iron-hulled ship and had three masts, with sails billowing off them. Around 5 a.m., shrouded in fog, it headed towards Fort Point carrying more than 200 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a collision]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Less than half the passengers survived. Many who did were saved by early morning fishermen. There’s photos of them gathered at Baker Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The wreck itself disappeared. Though it remained intact enough that months later, the pilot house tore free, and in it was the skeleton of the captain, who was identified by his gold watch, which its chain had tangled in his ribcage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But no, he says there’s no more gold down there — maybe tin, but nothing salvageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, I was told, many of those few dozen shipwrecks in and around the Bay are hard to reach. They’re covered in mud that ran down from the Sierras during the Gold Rush or near currents rushing in and out of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wanted to know what other shipwrecks sat in the fathoms below, so I went to the San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of waves, seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The park sits on the water across from Ghirardelli Square. It has a ship-shaped museum and a visitor and research center dedicated to West Coast maritime history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m here on a foggy morning. It’s cold. Brave open-water swimmers glide past these pirate-ship-looking boats docked at Hyde Street Pier. Each of the ships have narrowly avoided becoming wrecks themselves, and are instead retired in the park, and open to visitors on the weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape:\u003c/b> Wow, this is awesome. I can’t believe I haven’t been yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards:\u003c/b> We can certainly sort of get a feel for the place, take a walk through. We could also…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Park Ranger Christopher Edwards lets me into the Visitor Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, he tells me about another wreck. An oil tanker called the Frank H. Buck. He brings me back to the day of the wreck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>It was like a worse version of today. You know, today we’ve got sort of the classic morning San Francisco fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sounds of foghorns, water lapping, creaking boat]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was March 6, 1937. The Frank H Buck tanker was coming into San Francisco Bay with oil from just down the coast, in Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher says it was a working ship, and the 30 to 40 person crew were probably dressed in modest work clothes. And nearby, the SS President Coolidge was a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers headed outbound…west towards Hawaii, then Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, Christopher says the few-hundred-person crew were dressed in uniform, and the ship was organized by class — with the low-ranking crew traveling through below-deck passages to avoid disturbing the passengers. On that foggy day, both ship’s crews were using foghorns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>But the Golden Gate, which is the entrance into the bay, you know, it’s steep sided. And so those foghorns help, but the sound bounces around off the terrain. And it just makes it really difficult to know precisely where you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>They both reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>And until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other. And everything happens in slow motion with a ship. You can tell that a disaster is about to happen. But as soon as you realize that that disaster is happening, it might be too late to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The ships collided. Nose to nose. The lookout at Lands End \u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/farallones-shipwrecks/FRANK_H_BUCK_LYMAN_STEWART-Fact_Sheet.pdf\">said\u003c/a> it sounded like a booming Presidio gun through the fog. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck. And it’s Captain thought fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>He didn’t want to pull his ship back immediately and realized deliberately that if he did that, the Buck could sink very quickly.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The Coolidge captain shouted to the Buck captain. They were that close. They got everyone off the Buck. The crew was loaded into lifeboats and paddled away from the ship before the Coolidge backed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>The photographs, what they seem to capture is just the crew knowing what they needed to do and ensuring that nobody got hurt, nobody was left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>What was left behind was the massive body of the Frank H Buck, which began sinking, nose down. It was carried by currents to the rocks off Lands End. Oil pooled out of it, like blood, from the once hearty vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The body of an oil tanker likely didn’t have any treasure. And honestly, Christopher says, the bottom of the bay probably doesn’t have the type of treasure our question asker Brian was asking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>What’s underneath? Is there gold? Is there other precious valuables down there? To the best of my knowledge. The short answer is no. But there’s a treasure down there. I’d say absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Christopher says, despite there being no gold, we have a lot to learn from wrecks like these.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>There’s archeological treasures down there. There’s stuff that tells you that somebody just like you existed there, that was their home, that was their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I thought back to Ariel in \u003ci>The Little Mermaid\u003c/i>. To her, treasures were relics of the human world. Candlesticks, wine stoppers…a fork. Hints of a world that wasn’t hers, but could have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ariel — and to Christopher — and maybe to many of us — history is its own kind of treasure. Not the type our question asker hoped for, but something of value nonetheless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On our way out, Christopher shows me a model of the entrance to San Francisco Bay, complete with a hand-sized Golden Gate bridge. Along the entrance to the bay, the names of about 50 wrecks are written in red. All their graveyards. All little ghost towns. All ships that needed to move between the big, open ocean and the thin ship channel that enters San Francisco Bay. All ships that didn’t quite make it. But still have a story to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow! I had no idea about those shipwrecks. But I do wish there had been some gold, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Yeah, I asked around and seriously, no. Maybe flecks of gold mixed in with the sediment.. leftover from the Gold Rush, but nothing worth trying to collect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it could be dangerous trying to reach some of these shipwrecks — James says the first team that tried to reach the Rio wreck lost their robot because of the strong currents down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That also sounds super costly!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> But to James and Christoper, it sounds like the treasure really is the history, and how it can help you picture the life that someone else had. Also….there’s another treasure learned about that I wanted to tell you about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What’s that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The other treasure is….Mud\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Mud?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Mud. Go with me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until about 15 years ago, environmentalists thought of mud as a nuisance in the bay. It flowed in from urban development, watersheds and mining through the mid-18 and 1900s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish and really clogged important spawning habitat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>That’s Julie Beagle. She’s an estuarine geomorphologist. Meaning she studies how water and sediment move to shape estuaries like the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The idea of keeping sediment, keeping development out of the Bay was really the guiding principle for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But around 2011 Julie and her colleagues began to change how they think about mud. They’d been successful at keeping it out. But, between that and some natural fluctuations, there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep. We need to maintain it in the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Not pirate treasure like our question asker wanted, but certainly treasure to scientists. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking storm surges and absorbing floodwaters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>As we adapt to sea-level rise, I think the world has this choice. Are we going to adapt with walls, with rock, with riprap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Or do we adapt with natural infrastructure, like marshes? To rebuild marshes that are at risk of drowning from sea-level rise, Julie and her colleagues would need a lot of this — now treasured mud — from the bottom of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They turned to the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge the mud in ports so ships can navigate the Bay. Julie applied to work for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Part of the reason I switched to the Army Corps is I said, who has the sediment, and how can we get that sediment to the places that it needs to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Now, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team. Along with the Corps and collaborators at the USGS and other local and government partners, Julie is using mud in pilot studies. They’re hoping bay marshlands can be built back up with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay. They tried this method for the first time in December.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle:\u003c/b> We placed 90,000 cubic yards in 169 trips. So the boats were going back and forth 24 hours a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Down at the Port of Redwood City, a dredge with a clamshell mouth loaded a flat bottom boat over and over until it was full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of a crane dumping mud into a boat]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Then a tugboat pushed that boat just across the Bay\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat motor]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>To the shores of Eden Landing, near Hayward. There, Julie says, the marshes have been eroding. Ponds behind it have been breached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat moving]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats reached about a mile offshore. It was a spot strategically chosen so the sediment will be carried towards the marshes by waves and tides naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And then the bottom just opens up and the sediment just comes down. And it happened so fast. It’s like 13 seconds. It was just like a “juh–zoupp!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>So. the bottom of the boat just opens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The bottom of the boat just opens\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>No way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>It places the material, and then the boat would go back and get another scow and come do it over and over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>One hundred and…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>169 times. 24 hours a day. They took Christmas off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>Wow, that’s incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And I’ve never been so excited to move dirt from one place to another in the Bay, you know?…\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats went back and forth nearly the whole month of December. Julie says if the pilot achieves its goal, and the marshes stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise, she hopes to someday give them regular boosts of mud every few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the Bay, just maybe not the type you expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the history down there ties us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold. Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Anna Marie Yanny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Brian Teaff for asking this week’s question. And thanks to Peter Pearsall from the USGS for the boat sounds from Julie’s mud pilot project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are off next week for the July 4 holiday — back in your podcast feeds on July 11.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This episode was edited by Kevin Stark and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Produced by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> And me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Special shout-out this week to Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour:\u003c/b> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own name:\u003c/b> Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"At the bottom of San Francisco Bay and near the Golden Gate Bridge lie dozens of shipwrecks, but their “treasure” isn't conventional. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1719517268,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":159,"wordCount":4594},"headData":{"title":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay? | KQED","description":"At the bottom of San Francisco Bay and near the Golden Gate Bridge lie dozens of shipwrecks, but their “treasure” isn't conventional. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay?","datePublished":"2024-06-27T03:01:20-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-27T12:41:08-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC7646914526.mp3?updated=1719436254","sticky":false,"nprByline":"Anna Marie Yanny","nprStoryId":"kqed-11991921","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11991921/is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for a culinary treasure: Dungeness crab. This winter, as the boat motored through the bay, Teaff wondered what other riches sat down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is at the bottom of the bay?” Teaff asked Bay Curious. And then, “I wonder if there’s any treasure down there?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the treasure front, the simple and tragic answer is: No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for precious metals, gems or valuable keepsakes, you probably won’t find them at the bottom of the bay. According to bay researchers and maritime experts, while there may be specks of gold mixed in with sediment that flowed into the bay during the Gold Rush, it’s not really worth salvaging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Literally no treasure to be found in the bay at all,” maritime archeologist, historian and author James Delgado said. “Other than history — that either can be studied or left to slowly sit there and…rust in peace.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, so no treasure. But let’s take a closer look at what is down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘The Titanic of San Francisco Bay’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To Delgado, and maybe to many of us, history \u003ci>is\u003c/i> the treasure. What the bay lacks in pirate booty, it makes up for in historical artifacts — like shipwrecks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a decade ago, Delgado mapped shipwrecks using sonar as the Director of the Maritime Heritage Program for NOAA, the U.S. agency tasked with monitoring our weather and oceans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s probably several dozen [shipwrecks] that sit in and around the entrance to the bay and in the bay itself,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2014, Delgado’s research team and collaborators used underwater robots to relocate one of the bay’s deadliest wrecks: a steamship named the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">west of the Golden Gate Bridge\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991926\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_j07-18337_gl.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991926\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white drawing of four masted ship on rough seas.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-800x473.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1020x604.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-160x95.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1536x909.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A painting of the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park safr_21374_j07-18337_gl)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1901, the ship arrived at San Francisco Bay in thick fog after a more than two-month voyage to China, Japan and Hawaii. It carried 210 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants. Around 5 a.m., the steamer headed through the fog into Fort Point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In total, 128 people died in the wreck. Many of the survivors were saved by early morning fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991928\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991928\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of desolate looking people surrounded by their belongings.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1158\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-800x483.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1020x615.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1536x926.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Survivors from the City of Rio de Janeiro shipwreck gathered at Baker Beach. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The large iron-hulled boat was swallowed by the bay. About a year and a half later, its pilot house floated to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In it was the skeleton of the captain who was identified by his gold watch,” Delgado said. “Its chain had tangled in his ribcage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that’s it for gold in the Rio. The only metal of value left now is tin, and that’s not worth salvaging, Delgado said. The ship is covered in mud and located near dangerous currents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This turns out to be true for many of the wrecks in the bay. The cost of reaching them could be greater than anything you might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The bay’s sunken ghost towns\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Why do ghost towns [fascinate] so many people?” asked Christopher Edwards, a park ranger at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/index.htm\">San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park\u003c/a>. “For me, a shipwreck site has that same fascination because it was where people existed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One wreck that stands out to Edwards is that of the Frank H. Buck, which now lies \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">off Lands End\u003c/a> in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On March 6, 1937, the oil tanker was making its way to San Francisco Bay from down the coast, in Ventura. It was a foggy day as the Frank H. Buck entered the Golden Gate. Nowadays, ships use \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/marine-radar\">radar\u003c/a> to detect each other in bad weather. But back then, the Buck just had its foghorn, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SS President Coolidge, a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers, headed West towards Hawaii, then Japan, which was nearby. Its foghorn was also blaring. But sound can bounce off the terrain near the Golden Gate and make it difficult to know precisely where you are, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both ships reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge. There, they collided, nose to nose. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991932\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 695px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991932\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo from above looking down on a large ship beginning to take on water and sink.\" width=\"695\" height=\"760\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg 695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2-160x175.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 695px) 100vw, 695px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Frank H. Buck’s front decks awash after the collision. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain shouted a plan over to the Buck captain. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> quoted him saying: “When we collided I megaphoned Captain Kelly of the Frank H. Buck to hold her where she was. ‘I’ll keep my bow in you,’ I said, ‘so you’ll stay afloat.’ Or words to that effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain held his position until rescue boats and the Coast Guard could get everyone off the Buck. Then, the Coolidge backed away. The body of the Frank H. Buck, which was more than 400 feet long, began sinking and was carried to the rocks off Lands End.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 985px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a half sunk ship just off shore.\" width=\"985\" height=\"770\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg 985w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-800x625.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-160x125.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 985px) 100vw, 985px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Buck sank, nose down, near Mile Rock Lighthouse. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park’s Visitor Center has a life ring from the Buck on display. Edwards hopes such artifacts will help visitors picture a seafaring life that, centuries ago, could have been theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Mud as treasure? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond shipwrecks, environmentalists say the bay floor is home to an even more unlikely treasure: mud. For a long time, mud was seen as a problem for the bay, said Julie Beagle, an estuarine geomorphologist. It had flowed into the bay from \u003ca href=\"https://ca.water.usgs.gov/pubs/2013/BarnardEtAl2013.pdf\">urban development, watersheds and mining\u003c/a> from the mid-1800s through the 1900’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The idea of keeping sediment out of the bay was really the guiding principle for a long time, as it should be,” Beagle said. “Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish, and [it] really clogged important spawning habitat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-011-9382-x\">Research around 2011 showed\u003c/a> that their plan was working. Between development regulations and some natural fluctuations, less sediment was floating in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/stormsurge-stormtide.html\">storm surges\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/saltmarsh.html\">absorbing floodwaters\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep,” Beagle said. “We need to maintain it in the system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To build the marshes back up and fortify them against sea-level rise, scientists would need a lot of mud — approximately \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfei.org/sites/default/files/biblio_files/Sediment-for-Survival-factsheet_1.pdf\">450 million cubic yards\u003c/a>, by some estimates. Beagle started working for the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge mud in ports so ships can navigate the bay. There, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They recently launched a pilot project to try building up Bay marshlands with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay, along with collaborators from the U.S. Geological Survey and other local and government partners. It’s the first time this method is being tested in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is such a place-based thing to me,” said Beagle, who was born and raised in Oakland. “It really requires understanding of the watersheds, of the landscape, of the people, of the values.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December, the team moved 90,000 cubic yards of dredged sediment from the Port of Redwood City to the shores of Eden Landing, an eroding marsh near Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Stories/Article/3644567/shallow-water-strategic-placement-pilot-project-kicks-off-in-san-francisco-bay/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A square, blue modern looking boat chugs out into the bay.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1356\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-800x565.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1020x720.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1536x1085.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A dredge loads a boat with sediment, destined for eroding marshlands at Eden Landing. \u003ccite>(Brandon Beach/US Army Corps of Engineers)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If the pilot study achieves its goal, the marshes will stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise. Next, Beagle hopes to test the method at other bay marshlands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really this move, nationally and internationally toward nature-based adaptation to all the climate risks that we face,” Beagle said. “Because we know that the way we’ve done business for the last 150 years is not going to solve the problems of the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the bay, just maybe not the type you expected. But if the artifacts down there tie us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered fishing trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for Dungeness crab. They leave before dawn and motor out through the Bay, under the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>There’s crazy stuff going on. I mean, there’s all kinds of water and it’s moving in all directions, and you can just tell the bay is just deep there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This winter, Brian stood on the boat and looked into the swirling abyss below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Riding on the Bay going, there’s a lot of water that moves through here. And what’s underneath? I know there’s fish, what else is there? So it was just what’s underneath the water?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Are there maybe … shipwrecks down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>And then of course, you know, the next question is, oh, boy, I wonder if there’s any treasure down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Treasure like precious metals, gems, valuable keepsakes. If you ask Brian to answer his own question, he says:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>I think that it’s probably just full of mud down there. But boy, I’d like to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme song starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Brian wrote to Bay Curious, to learn more about what’s at the bottom of the Bay. Today on the show, we’ll hear about two shipwrecks that haunt Bay Area lore. Plus, we’ll go searching for treasure and find it in something … unexpected. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Like many of us, KQED Reporter Anna Marie Yanny lives a short walk from the Bay. Like our question-asker Brian, she was eager to find out what’s down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The first thing that came to my mind was the beginning of the \u003ci>Little Mermaid\u003c/i> movie. Mermaid Ariel and her fish friend, Flounder, are diving in a shipwreck looking for treasures. Could there be any wrecks at the bottom of the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[The Little Mermaid movie clip starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Flounder:\u003c/b> Ariel, wait for me!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ariel:\u003c/b> Wow, have you seen anything so incredible in your entire life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I had to talk to James Delgado. He’s a renowned maritime archeologist and has worn many hats in the field. And back in the 70s, he was the first historian for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>Those early years at the park were magic because we were literally just new as a national park, and everything needed to be done. So, we conducted wide-sweeping inventories and explorations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>He dove in the muddy waters of the bay in search of shipwrecks. And decades later, he mapped them with federal researchers, using sonar. I asked him just how many wrecks are in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>There’s probably several dozen that sit in and around the entrance to the Bay and in the Bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>A few wrecks stand out to him and other historians. He tells me about one of the deadliest, a steamship called the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. Named for the city in Brazil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>James and a team of researchers and underwater robots used sonar to relocate this wreck in 2014. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel west of Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was February 1901. The Rio was sailing to San Francisco from Asia \u003ci>[sounds of waves and wind] \u003c/i>after an over two-month voyage to China, Japan, Hawaii. It was a big iron-hulled ship and had three masts, with sails billowing off them. Around 5 a.m., shrouded in fog, it headed towards Fort Point carrying more than 200 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a collision]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Less than half the passengers survived. Many who did were saved by early morning fishermen. There’s photos of them gathered at Baker Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The wreck itself disappeared. Though it remained intact enough that months later, the pilot house tore free, and in it was the skeleton of the captain, who was identified by his gold watch, which its chain had tangled in his ribcage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But no, he says there’s no more gold down there — maybe tin, but nothing salvageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, I was told, many of those few dozen shipwrecks in and around the Bay are hard to reach. They’re covered in mud that ran down from the Sierras during the Gold Rush or near currents rushing in and out of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wanted to know what other shipwrecks sat in the fathoms below, so I went to the San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of waves, seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The park sits on the water across from Ghirardelli Square. It has a ship-shaped museum and a visitor and research center dedicated to West Coast maritime history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m here on a foggy morning. It’s cold. Brave open-water swimmers glide past these pirate-ship-looking boats docked at Hyde Street Pier. Each of the ships have narrowly avoided becoming wrecks themselves, and are instead retired in the park, and open to visitors on the weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape:\u003c/b> Wow, this is awesome. I can’t believe I haven’t been yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards:\u003c/b> We can certainly sort of get a feel for the place, take a walk through. We could also…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Park Ranger Christopher Edwards lets me into the Visitor Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, he tells me about another wreck. An oil tanker called the Frank H. Buck. He brings me back to the day of the wreck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>It was like a worse version of today. You know, today we’ve got sort of the classic morning San Francisco fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sounds of foghorns, water lapping, creaking boat]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was March 6, 1937. The Frank H Buck tanker was coming into San Francisco Bay with oil from just down the coast, in Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher says it was a working ship, and the 30 to 40 person crew were probably dressed in modest work clothes. And nearby, the SS President Coolidge was a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers headed outbound…west towards Hawaii, then Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, Christopher says the few-hundred-person crew were dressed in uniform, and the ship was organized by class — with the low-ranking crew traveling through below-deck passages to avoid disturbing the passengers. On that foggy day, both ship’s crews were using foghorns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>But the Golden Gate, which is the entrance into the bay, you know, it’s steep sided. And so those foghorns help, but the sound bounces around off the terrain. And it just makes it really difficult to know precisely where you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>They both reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>And until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other. And everything happens in slow motion with a ship. You can tell that a disaster is about to happen. But as soon as you realize that that disaster is happening, it might be too late to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The ships collided. Nose to nose. The lookout at Lands End \u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/farallones-shipwrecks/FRANK_H_BUCK_LYMAN_STEWART-Fact_Sheet.pdf\">said\u003c/a> it sounded like a booming Presidio gun through the fog. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck. And it’s Captain thought fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>He didn’t want to pull his ship back immediately and realized deliberately that if he did that, the Buck could sink very quickly.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The Coolidge captain shouted to the Buck captain. They were that close. They got everyone off the Buck. The crew was loaded into lifeboats and paddled away from the ship before the Coolidge backed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>The photographs, what they seem to capture is just the crew knowing what they needed to do and ensuring that nobody got hurt, nobody was left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>What was left behind was the massive body of the Frank H Buck, which began sinking, nose down. It was carried by currents to the rocks off Lands End. Oil pooled out of it, like blood, from the once hearty vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The body of an oil tanker likely didn’t have any treasure. And honestly, Christopher says, the bottom of the bay probably doesn’t have the type of treasure our question asker Brian was asking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>What’s underneath? Is there gold? Is there other precious valuables down there? To the best of my knowledge. The short answer is no. But there’s a treasure down there. I’d say absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Christopher says, despite there being no gold, we have a lot to learn from wrecks like these.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>There’s archeological treasures down there. There’s stuff that tells you that somebody just like you existed there, that was their home, that was their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I thought back to Ariel in \u003ci>The Little Mermaid\u003c/i>. To her, treasures were relics of the human world. Candlesticks, wine stoppers…a fork. Hints of a world that wasn’t hers, but could have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ariel — and to Christopher — and maybe to many of us — history is its own kind of treasure. Not the type our question asker hoped for, but something of value nonetheless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On our way out, Christopher shows me a model of the entrance to San Francisco Bay, complete with a hand-sized Golden Gate bridge. Along the entrance to the bay, the names of about 50 wrecks are written in red. All their graveyards. All little ghost towns. All ships that needed to move between the big, open ocean and the thin ship channel that enters San Francisco Bay. All ships that didn’t quite make it. But still have a story to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow! I had no idea about those shipwrecks. But I do wish there had been some gold, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Yeah, I asked around and seriously, no. Maybe flecks of gold mixed in with the sediment.. leftover from the Gold Rush, but nothing worth trying to collect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it could be dangerous trying to reach some of these shipwrecks — James says the first team that tried to reach the Rio wreck lost their robot because of the strong currents down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That also sounds super costly!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> But to James and Christoper, it sounds like the treasure really is the history, and how it can help you picture the life that someone else had. Also….there’s another treasure learned about that I wanted to tell you about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What’s that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The other treasure is….Mud\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Mud?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Mud. Go with me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until about 15 years ago, environmentalists thought of mud as a nuisance in the bay. It flowed in from urban development, watersheds and mining through the mid-18 and 1900s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish and really clogged important spawning habitat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>That’s Julie Beagle. She’s an estuarine geomorphologist. Meaning she studies how water and sediment move to shape estuaries like the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The idea of keeping sediment, keeping development out of the Bay was really the guiding principle for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But around 2011 Julie and her colleagues began to change how they think about mud. They’d been successful at keeping it out. But, between that and some natural fluctuations, there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep. We need to maintain it in the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Not pirate treasure like our question asker wanted, but certainly treasure to scientists. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking storm surges and absorbing floodwaters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>As we adapt to sea-level rise, I think the world has this choice. Are we going to adapt with walls, with rock, with riprap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Or do we adapt with natural infrastructure, like marshes? To rebuild marshes that are at risk of drowning from sea-level rise, Julie and her colleagues would need a lot of this — now treasured mud — from the bottom of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They turned to the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge the mud in ports so ships can navigate the Bay. Julie applied to work for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Part of the reason I switched to the Army Corps is I said, who has the sediment, and how can we get that sediment to the places that it needs to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Now, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team. Along with the Corps and collaborators at the USGS and other local and government partners, Julie is using mud in pilot studies. They’re hoping bay marshlands can be built back up with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay. They tried this method for the first time in December.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle:\u003c/b> We placed 90,000 cubic yards in 169 trips. So the boats were going back and forth 24 hours a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Down at the Port of Redwood City, a dredge with a clamshell mouth loaded a flat bottom boat over and over until it was full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of a crane dumping mud into a boat]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Then a tugboat pushed that boat just across the Bay\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat motor]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>To the shores of Eden Landing, near Hayward. There, Julie says, the marshes have been eroding. Ponds behind it have been breached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat moving]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats reached about a mile offshore. It was a spot strategically chosen so the sediment will be carried towards the marshes by waves and tides naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And then the bottom just opens up and the sediment just comes down. And it happened so fast. It’s like 13 seconds. It was just like a “juh–zoupp!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>So. the bottom of the boat just opens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The bottom of the boat just opens\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>No way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>It places the material, and then the boat would go back and get another scow and come do it over and over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>One hundred and…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>169 times. 24 hours a day. They took Christmas off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>Wow, that’s incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And I’ve never been so excited to move dirt from one place to another in the Bay, you know?…\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats went back and forth nearly the whole month of December. Julie says if the pilot achieves its goal, and the marshes stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise, she hopes to someday give them regular boosts of mud every few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the Bay, just maybe not the type you expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the history down there ties us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold. Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Anna Marie Yanny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Brian Teaff for asking this week’s question. And thanks to Peter Pearsall from the USGS for the boat sounds from Julie’s mud pilot project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are off next week for the July 4 holiday — back in your podcast feeds on July 11.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This episode was edited by Kevin Stark and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Produced by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> And me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Special shout-out this week to Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour:\u003c/b> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own name:\u003c/b> Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11991921/is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","authors":["byline_news_11991921"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_34165","news_19906","news_28250","news_8","news_356"],"tags":["news_6627","news_34226","news_3553"],"featImg":"news_11991940","label":"source_news_11991921"},"news_11991017":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11991017","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11991017","score":null,"sort":[1718877619000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","title":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay","publishDate":1718877619,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003ch2>Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I want to take you back to April 1961. It’s a Sunday, and copies of the \u003cem>Oakland Tribune\u003c/em> newspaper are hitting doorsteps all over the East Bay. A big article inside was getting a lot of attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The San Francisco Bay — Big, briny and beautiful. The “meal ticket” that brought 4 million people here has been shrinking rapidly due to man. How much more will the next two decades diminish the waterway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Those were the opening lines of the article written by reporter Ed Salzman. He’d recently seen a map from the Army Corps of Engineers that showed all the projects being considered by local governments that would fill in the Bay — creating land where there was once water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>To lovers of the Bay, the prospect is anything but pretty. By 2020, the Bay could be little more than a wide river.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The story was picked up by other newspapers, and soon sparked an environmental revolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13911567/the-1960s-women-whose-environmental-activism-saved-the-bay\">we’re spotlighting three women who saw the future laid out in those newspaper articles and decided to do something about it\u003c/a>. Their efforts to \u003ci>Save the Bay\u003c/i> had a ripple effect that changed our landscape, \u003ci>and state politics\u003c/i>, forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It features recordings from the UC Berkeley Oral history center — which are awesome because it means we get to hear \u003ci>firsthand\u003c/i> from historic change makers. But technology has come a long way since these were recorded, so you may need to listen a little closer than usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stick around at the end of the episode for more \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">details about the Voices for the Environment exhibition.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>In the early 1960s, California was already the most populated state in the nation, and the Bay Area was becoming a crowded place. Developers needed land, and they were looking to fill in the Bay to create more of it. But as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>’s Sasha Khokha tells us, some local residents were \u003ci>not \u003c/i>keen on this plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The Army Corps map published in the newspaper sent shockwaves around the region. And it alarmed three Berkeley residents: Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Esther Gulick and Sylvia McLaughlin. They recalled that moment when they were interviewed together for an oral history project in 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>When the Army Corps map appeared in the \u003ci>Oakland\u003c/i> \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i> showing that the Bay would end up being a river by 2020 because of all the fill, it was clear to me that this was certainly a possible train of events, and it needed to be stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>And I was totally appalled, reading in the [\u003ci>Berkeley\u003c/i>] \u003ci>Gazette\u003c/i>, of the city manager’s dream to fill over 2,000 acres in front of Berkeley. And this was one of the things that galvanized us into action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>About two weeks later, Esther came over. We were sitting in the living room, and it was a beautiful day, and the Bay was very blue. I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The three Berkeley women started having regular meetings in the spring of 1961. They fit squarely within a well-established Bay Area tradition of environmental activists. They were white. They were highly educated and they were well-connected in local and state political circles. You might recognize Catherine Kerr, as the wife of former UC President Clark Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They read city council plans, consulted with academics on the Berkeley campus, and then called a meeting of the leading environmental organizations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>The three of us had decided that we were not conservationists and this was a really terrible problem. We were going to tell them about the problem, and then we expected they would carry the ball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>We weren’t going to form an organization at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>We didn’t have any of the expertise. We explained about the Army Corps map. there were maybe eighty square miles of fill already proposed by various cities around the Bay. And so we said, “This is the problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One by one the environmental leaders in the room agreed that saving the Bay was important. But they also said it was not something their groups could take on. Kay Kerr remembered Dave Brower from the Sierra Club saying:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>“Well, it’s just exceedingly important, but the Sierra Club is interested in wilderness and in trails.” Then the next guy, Newton Drury, said, “Well, this is very important, but we’re saving the redwoods, and we can’t save the Bay.” And then it went around the room to the point where there was dead silence. So we said, “Well, the Bay is going to go down the drain.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But Kerr said there was one way the Sierra Club offered to help:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>Dave Brower said, “Now there’s only one thing to do: start a new organization, and we’ll give you all our mailing lists.” And they all wished us a great deal of luck when they went out the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: T\u003c/b>hey said, “Someone should really do something about this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>It turned out that we were the somebodies.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>And that’s how these three Berkeley women found themselves starting the Save San Francisco Bay Association. And those other environmental groups they did follow through in one important way. They shared their mailing lists. Out of the first 700 mailers the three women sent out, they got about 600 pledges of support. Within a month, Save San Francisco Bay had secured a solid membership base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>They just couldn’t believe it, you know. They, like us, thought the Bay belonged to us, the Bay belonged to everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One of the group’s first tasks was to push back against Berkeley’s plan to double the size of the city by filling in more than 2,000 acres of shoreline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The activists showed up in droves to Berkeley City Council meetings to object to the plan. And they flooded the mailboxes of elected officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I would say that was one of our very first lessons, that if you were going to save the Bay, you had to have the support, and you had to educate the politicians. And the second thing was that you couldn’t educate them or get their support without facts. So we spent a great deal of time on collecting facts and then educating everybody that would listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>Our members were very responsive. We would suggest that they attend critical city council meetings and they would. Sometimes the following city council meeting would be wall to wall with chamber of commerce people. It went back and forth like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>In the end, members of the Save San Francisco Bay Association won. In 1963, the Berkeley city council rescinded its plan to fill in the Bay. It was a big victory for environmentalists and it would change Berkeley and the larger Bay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But there was a problem. The victory in Berkeley only went so far. Other cities around the bay had dozens of other fill plans in the works. The three Berkeley activists knew something had to be done in \u003ci>Sacramento\u003c/i> if they were really going to save the \u003ci>whole\u003c/i> bay. Kay Kerr used her political connections to get a meeting with state Senator Eugene McAteer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McAteer was born in San Francisco and was a powerhouse in Bay Area politics. He was a builder, and he had a track record of supporting development and infrastructure projects, like freeways, universities and dams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he could tell that the issue of whether or not to fill in the Bay was a significant one. He’d seen the legislature stall over this debate before. So, he proposed a different tact: a study commission focused on regulating development of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I think what people tend to forget now is how unusual it was to have anybody of McAteer’s stature interested in an environmental issue in the sixties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> This is Joseph Bodovitz. He was a regional planner, tapped to lead a study about what it would look like to regulate bay development. And he said it took the clout of a business-focused, pro-development leader like McAteer to force the legislature to take up the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I don’t know what would be a good example, like Ronald Reagan really being serious about protecting redwoods or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The study group ultimately created what became known as the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission, or BCDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These were uncharted waters. There was no precedent for regional environmental regulation back in 1965. In fact, BCDC was the first regulatory agency of its kind in the nation. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency wouldn’t be established for another 5 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A guy named Melvin B. Lane became BCDC’s first chairman. He approached regulating bay development using a handful of basic policy concepts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melvin Lane: \u003c/b>One of them was that, you don’t put something in the Bay that can just as well go on land. The next one was, you don’t put something next to the Bay that can just as well go inland. And that covered an awful lot of things. A house doesn’t have to be in the Bay, a yacht harbor does. [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Mel Lane was a Republican and a successful businessman. And he could speak with authority to developers and real estate interests. At the same time, he was an environmentalist and publisher of \u003ci>Sunset Magazine\u003c/i>, which had long celebrated the beauty of California and the West, and the importance of preserving natural lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Things that the general public can enjoy will get preference over things that just a limited group can enjoy. The things that a limited group of people can enjoy will get a preference over the something that only is for a single person, or a single owner. There are a lot of industries that need to be in the Bay, but if you fill it up with houses and warehouses, you don’t leave room for those things that really have to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Lane thought BCDC should take a different perspective from how a city council or developer might approach the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>If somebody owns a piece of shoreline and some mud flats, and they go to the city council and they say, “Now I just want to fill in a little bit out here to help my building, but I’m going to put a little path around here, and there’s a picnic table. And I’ve got this architect that’s going to put ivy on my building, and I’m going to create fifty jobs, and I’m going to pay you twenty thousand a year in taxes, and on and on. And, I’ve only taken .0007 percent of the bay.” A city council can’t turn that down. But if you looked at all of the privately-owned shallow parts of San Francisco Bay and said, “Now if this happens to even a large part of it, was that a good idea?” We’d say, “No.” If you looked at that one slice, you’d say, “Yes.” So as planners, we should be looking at the total, but a developer looks at only his thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Operating a commission that actually rejected permits for multi-million-dollar developments wasn’t easy. Almost immediately, BCDC found itself squaring off against all kinds of Bay Area business interests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>At the time BCDC was created there were some firms who were fighting it extremely hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Leslie Salt Company was the largest landowner on the San Francisco Bay, operating 26,000 acres of salt ponds at the southern tip of the Bay. In the mid-1960s, the company was looking to turn large portions of their property into commercial and residential real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel\u003c/b> \u003cb>Lane: \u003c/b>They had decided a couple of years before BCDC came into being, that they were going to start making money on their real estate, because they were never going to do it in the salt business. So, we did fight and scratch with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> BCDC rejected Leslie Salt’s proposal. The commission also battled other corporate giants, including two big ones: U.S. Steel, and Castle & Cooke, better known by its two subsidiaries, C&H Sugar and Dole. U.S. Steel wanted to build an office complex in the San Francisco harbor next to the Ferry Building that would have included a 550-foot skyscraper, more than twice the size of the Ferry Building’s clock tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Well, they wanted to put some big office buildings out in the Bay. And we did fight them on that, and everybody else took credit for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Castle & Cooke’s project was even more ambitious. They wanted to build a 42-acre plaza out into the Bay that would house a hotel and a bunch of restaurants and shops. The footprint of the plaza would have been 30% larger than Alcatraz Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BCDC rejected both proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Another proposal called for filling in the east side of the peninsula — all the way from San Bruno to the San Mateo Bridge — with dirt from San Bruno Mountain. It would have created 27 square miles of infill land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>They would cut down the mountain, push it in the Bay. Pushing land into the Bay — developers just love that. God, they think that is so wonderful. Anyway, we finally wore them down, but they were tough and very able.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> In 1969, the California Legislature made BCDC a permanent commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becoming an \u003ci>official\u003c/i> state agency marked two milestones in the evolution of Bay Area environmentalism. First, it gave environmental considerations a permanent place in state government. Second, the agency tried to strike a balance between economic development and environmental conservation. Here’s what Joe Bodovitz, the planner, said about that:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>People sort of had to confront the legitimate interests of both conservation and development. The idea, again, that Mel felt very strongly about is that reasonable, fair-minded people, confronted with facts in a reasonably unemotional way, are going to come out largely agreeing to the same kinds of things. They may disagree on a particular permit or a particular issue, but no fair-minded person can say marshlands aren’t important. Similarly, no fair-minded person can say ports aren’t important to the Bay Area economy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Mel Lane said BCDC’s greatest innovation was as a government mediator. It created and enforced rules across the Bay; and it occupied a middle ground between activists and developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Environmentalists should be extremists. They represent an extreme, and the people who are going to make a buck represent the other one, and the decision-maker should sweat it out in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The work of Kay Kerr, Esther Gulick, Sylvia McLaughlin and BCDC certainly saved San Francisco Bay from development. But it also became the model for other state regulatory agencies, like the California Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What began with the activism of three women in Berkeley, flourished into an environmental agency whose impact would be felt for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Sasha Khokha, host of KQED’s The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> It was originally produced by Todd Holmes and Roger Eardley-Pryor, with help from Sasha Khokha. It featured historic interviews from the Oral History Center archives at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interviews include Esther Gulick, Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Sylvia McLaughlin, Joseph Bodovitz and Melvin B. Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about the Bay’s history of environmental activism — including how pollution has affected communities of color in the Bay — \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">check out the free exhibit at UC Berkeley in The Bancroft Library Gallery\u003c/a>. It runs through November 2024. We’ve got all the details in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and myself, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Dan Brekke for his voice work in the show intro this week. As always, thanks to the KQED family for making this show possible, especially Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, César Saldaña, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"In the 1960s, cities around San Francisco Bay proposed plans to fill in the bay for development. Three Berkeley women saw all those proposals would shrink the Bay to a river. They stepped in and changed the future of development in the San Francisco Bay Area.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1718812870,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":81,"wordCount":3047},"headData":{"title":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay | KQED","description":"In the 1960s, cities around San Francisco Bay proposed plans to fill in the bay for development. Three Berkeley women saw all those proposals would shrink the Bay to a river. They stepped in and changed the future of development in the San Francisco Bay Area.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay","datePublished":"2024-06-20T03:00:19-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-19T09:01:10-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://dcs.megaphone.fm/KQINC4789395252.mp3?key=271afc8f38cef1ec098809dc5f50c4b1&request_event_id=21fd3adf-7ced-489c-9bac-0847088072f6","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11991017/transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I want to take you back to April 1961. It’s a Sunday, and copies of the \u003cem>Oakland Tribune\u003c/em> newspaper are hitting doorsteps all over the East Bay. A big article inside was getting a lot of attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The San Francisco Bay — Big, briny and beautiful. The “meal ticket” that brought 4 million people here has been shrinking rapidly due to man. How much more will the next two decades diminish the waterway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Those were the opening lines of the article written by reporter Ed Salzman. He’d recently seen a map from the Army Corps of Engineers that showed all the projects being considered by local governments that would fill in the Bay — creating land where there was once water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>To lovers of the Bay, the prospect is anything but pretty. By 2020, the Bay could be little more than a wide river.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The story was picked up by other newspapers, and soon sparked an environmental revolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13911567/the-1960s-women-whose-environmental-activism-saved-the-bay\">we’re spotlighting three women who saw the future laid out in those newspaper articles and decided to do something about it\u003c/a>. Their efforts to \u003ci>Save the Bay\u003c/i> had a ripple effect that changed our landscape, \u003ci>and state politics\u003c/i>, forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It features recordings from the UC Berkeley Oral history center — which are awesome because it means we get to hear \u003ci>firsthand\u003c/i> from historic change makers. But technology has come a long way since these were recorded, so you may need to listen a little closer than usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stick around at the end of the episode for more \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">details about the Voices for the Environment exhibition.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>In the early 1960s, California was already the most populated state in the nation, and the Bay Area was becoming a crowded place. Developers needed land, and they were looking to fill in the Bay to create more of it. But as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>’s Sasha Khokha tells us, some local residents were \u003ci>not \u003c/i>keen on this plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The Army Corps map published in the newspaper sent shockwaves around the region. And it alarmed three Berkeley residents: Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Esther Gulick and Sylvia McLaughlin. They recalled that moment when they were interviewed together for an oral history project in 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>When the Army Corps map appeared in the \u003ci>Oakland\u003c/i> \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i> showing that the Bay would end up being a river by 2020 because of all the fill, it was clear to me that this was certainly a possible train of events, and it needed to be stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>And I was totally appalled, reading in the [\u003ci>Berkeley\u003c/i>] \u003ci>Gazette\u003c/i>, of the city manager’s dream to fill over 2,000 acres in front of Berkeley. And this was one of the things that galvanized us into action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>About two weeks later, Esther came over. We were sitting in the living room, and it was a beautiful day, and the Bay was very blue. I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The three Berkeley women started having regular meetings in the spring of 1961. They fit squarely within a well-established Bay Area tradition of environmental activists. They were white. They were highly educated and they were well-connected in local and state political circles. You might recognize Catherine Kerr, as the wife of former UC President Clark Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They read city council plans, consulted with academics on the Berkeley campus, and then called a meeting of the leading environmental organizations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>The three of us had decided that we were not conservationists and this was a really terrible problem. We were going to tell them about the problem, and then we expected they would carry the ball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>We weren’t going to form an organization at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>We didn’t have any of the expertise. We explained about the Army Corps map. there were maybe eighty square miles of fill already proposed by various cities around the Bay. And so we said, “This is the problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One by one the environmental leaders in the room agreed that saving the Bay was important. But they also said it was not something their groups could take on. Kay Kerr remembered Dave Brower from the Sierra Club saying:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>“Well, it’s just exceedingly important, but the Sierra Club is interested in wilderness and in trails.” Then the next guy, Newton Drury, said, “Well, this is very important, but we’re saving the redwoods, and we can’t save the Bay.” And then it went around the room to the point where there was dead silence. So we said, “Well, the Bay is going to go down the drain.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But Kerr said there was one way the Sierra Club offered to help:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>Dave Brower said, “Now there’s only one thing to do: start a new organization, and we’ll give you all our mailing lists.” And they all wished us a great deal of luck when they went out the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: T\u003c/b>hey said, “Someone should really do something about this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>It turned out that we were the somebodies.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>And that’s how these three Berkeley women found themselves starting the Save San Francisco Bay Association. And those other environmental groups they did follow through in one important way. They shared their mailing lists. Out of the first 700 mailers the three women sent out, they got about 600 pledges of support. Within a month, Save San Francisco Bay had secured a solid membership base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>They just couldn’t believe it, you know. They, like us, thought the Bay belonged to us, the Bay belonged to everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One of the group’s first tasks was to push back against Berkeley’s plan to double the size of the city by filling in more than 2,000 acres of shoreline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The activists showed up in droves to Berkeley City Council meetings to object to the plan. And they flooded the mailboxes of elected officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I would say that was one of our very first lessons, that if you were going to save the Bay, you had to have the support, and you had to educate the politicians. And the second thing was that you couldn’t educate them or get their support without facts. So we spent a great deal of time on collecting facts and then educating everybody that would listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>Our members were very responsive. We would suggest that they attend critical city council meetings and they would. Sometimes the following city council meeting would be wall to wall with chamber of commerce people. It went back and forth like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>In the end, members of the Save San Francisco Bay Association won. In 1963, the Berkeley city council rescinded its plan to fill in the Bay. It was a big victory for environmentalists and it would change Berkeley and the larger Bay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But there was a problem. The victory in Berkeley only went so far. Other cities around the bay had dozens of other fill plans in the works. The three Berkeley activists knew something had to be done in \u003ci>Sacramento\u003c/i> if they were really going to save the \u003ci>whole\u003c/i> bay. Kay Kerr used her political connections to get a meeting with state Senator Eugene McAteer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McAteer was born in San Francisco and was a powerhouse in Bay Area politics. He was a builder, and he had a track record of supporting development and infrastructure projects, like freeways, universities and dams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he could tell that the issue of whether or not to fill in the Bay was a significant one. He’d seen the legislature stall over this debate before. So, he proposed a different tact: a study commission focused on regulating development of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I think what people tend to forget now is how unusual it was to have anybody of McAteer’s stature interested in an environmental issue in the sixties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> This is Joseph Bodovitz. He was a regional planner, tapped to lead a study about what it would look like to regulate bay development. And he said it took the clout of a business-focused, pro-development leader like McAteer to force the legislature to take up the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I don’t know what would be a good example, like Ronald Reagan really being serious about protecting redwoods or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The study group ultimately created what became known as the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission, or BCDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These were uncharted waters. There was no precedent for regional environmental regulation back in 1965. In fact, BCDC was the first regulatory agency of its kind in the nation. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency wouldn’t be established for another 5 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A guy named Melvin B. Lane became BCDC’s first chairman. He approached regulating bay development using a handful of basic policy concepts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melvin Lane: \u003c/b>One of them was that, you don’t put something in the Bay that can just as well go on land. The next one was, you don’t put something next to the Bay that can just as well go inland. And that covered an awful lot of things. A house doesn’t have to be in the Bay, a yacht harbor does. [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Mel Lane was a Republican and a successful businessman. And he could speak with authority to developers and real estate interests. At the same time, he was an environmentalist and publisher of \u003ci>Sunset Magazine\u003c/i>, which had long celebrated the beauty of California and the West, and the importance of preserving natural lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Things that the general public can enjoy will get preference over things that just a limited group can enjoy. The things that a limited group of people can enjoy will get a preference over the something that only is for a single person, or a single owner. There are a lot of industries that need to be in the Bay, but if you fill it up with houses and warehouses, you don’t leave room for those things that really have to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Lane thought BCDC should take a different perspective from how a city council or developer might approach the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>If somebody owns a piece of shoreline and some mud flats, and they go to the city council and they say, “Now I just want to fill in a little bit out here to help my building, but I’m going to put a little path around here, and there’s a picnic table. And I’ve got this architect that’s going to put ivy on my building, and I’m going to create fifty jobs, and I’m going to pay you twenty thousand a year in taxes, and on and on. And, I’ve only taken .0007 percent of the bay.” A city council can’t turn that down. But if you looked at all of the privately-owned shallow parts of San Francisco Bay and said, “Now if this happens to even a large part of it, was that a good idea?” We’d say, “No.” If you looked at that one slice, you’d say, “Yes.” So as planners, we should be looking at the total, but a developer looks at only his thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Operating a commission that actually rejected permits for multi-million-dollar developments wasn’t easy. Almost immediately, BCDC found itself squaring off against all kinds of Bay Area business interests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>At the time BCDC was created there were some firms who were fighting it extremely hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Leslie Salt Company was the largest landowner on the San Francisco Bay, operating 26,000 acres of salt ponds at the southern tip of the Bay. In the mid-1960s, the company was looking to turn large portions of their property into commercial and residential real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel\u003c/b> \u003cb>Lane: \u003c/b>They had decided a couple of years before BCDC came into being, that they were going to start making money on their real estate, because they were never going to do it in the salt business. So, we did fight and scratch with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> BCDC rejected Leslie Salt’s proposal. The commission also battled other corporate giants, including two big ones: U.S. Steel, and Castle & Cooke, better known by its two subsidiaries, C&H Sugar and Dole. U.S. Steel wanted to build an office complex in the San Francisco harbor next to the Ferry Building that would have included a 550-foot skyscraper, more than twice the size of the Ferry Building’s clock tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Well, they wanted to put some big office buildings out in the Bay. And we did fight them on that, and everybody else took credit for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Castle & Cooke’s project was even more ambitious. They wanted to build a 42-acre plaza out into the Bay that would house a hotel and a bunch of restaurants and shops. The footprint of the plaza would have been 30% larger than Alcatraz Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BCDC rejected both proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Another proposal called for filling in the east side of the peninsula — all the way from San Bruno to the San Mateo Bridge — with dirt from San Bruno Mountain. It would have created 27 square miles of infill land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>They would cut down the mountain, push it in the Bay. Pushing land into the Bay — developers just love that. God, they think that is so wonderful. Anyway, we finally wore them down, but they were tough and very able.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> In 1969, the California Legislature made BCDC a permanent commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becoming an \u003ci>official\u003c/i> state agency marked two milestones in the evolution of Bay Area environmentalism. First, it gave environmental considerations a permanent place in state government. Second, the agency tried to strike a balance between economic development and environmental conservation. Here’s what Joe Bodovitz, the planner, said about that:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>People sort of had to confront the legitimate interests of both conservation and development. The idea, again, that Mel felt very strongly about is that reasonable, fair-minded people, confronted with facts in a reasonably unemotional way, are going to come out largely agreeing to the same kinds of things. They may disagree on a particular permit or a particular issue, but no fair-minded person can say marshlands aren’t important. Similarly, no fair-minded person can say ports aren’t important to the Bay Area economy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Mel Lane said BCDC’s greatest innovation was as a government mediator. It created and enforced rules across the Bay; and it occupied a middle ground between activists and developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Environmentalists should be extremists. They represent an extreme, and the people who are going to make a buck represent the other one, and the decision-maker should sweat it out in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The work of Kay Kerr, Esther Gulick, Sylvia McLaughlin and BCDC certainly saved San Francisco Bay from development. But it also became the model for other state regulatory agencies, like the California Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What began with the activism of three women in Berkeley, flourished into an environmental agency whose impact would be felt for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Sasha Khokha, host of KQED’s The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> It was originally produced by Todd Holmes and Roger Eardley-Pryor, with help from Sasha Khokha. It featured historic interviews from the Oral History Center archives at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interviews include Esther Gulick, Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Sylvia McLaughlin, Joseph Bodovitz and Melvin B. Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about the Bay’s history of environmental activism — including how pollution has affected communities of color in the Bay — \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">check out the free exhibit at UC Berkeley in The Bancroft Library Gallery\u003c/a>. It runs through November 2024. We’ve got all the details in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and myself, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Dan Brekke for his voice work in the show intro this week. As always, thanks to the KQED family for making this show possible, especially Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, César Saldaña, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11991017/transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_19906"],"tags":["news_21077","news_20023","news_34205"],"featImg":"news_11991021","label":"source_news_11991017"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. 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