After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?
Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay?
Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay
What Does It Mean to 'Contain' a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions
Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It?
Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It
Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning
When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go
Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace
Sponsored
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I speak multiple languages and have reported and engineered in the Bay Area, Alaska, West Africa and Latin America.","avatar":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ed63e1170ee4abe7e85e75cfcbdfc787?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twitter":null,"facebook":null,"instagram":null,"linkedin":null,"sites":[{"site":"news","roles":["contributor"]},{"site":"science","roles":["contributor"]}],"headData":{"title":"Katherine Monahan | KQED","description":"Reporter / Sound Engineer","ogImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ed63e1170ee4abe7e85e75cfcbdfc787?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ed63e1170ee4abe7e85e75cfcbdfc787?s=600&d=blank&r=g"},"isLoading":false,"link":"/author/kmonahan"}},"breakingNewsReducer":{},"campaignFinanceReducer":{},"firebase":{"requesting":{},"requested":{},"timestamps":{},"data":{},"ordered":{},"auth":{"isLoaded":false,"isEmpty":true},"authError":null,"profile":{"isLoaded":false,"isEmpty":true},"listeners":{"byId":{},"allIds":[]},"isInitializing":false,"errors":[]},"navBarReducer":{"navBarId":"news","fullView":true,"showPlayer":false},"navMenuReducer":{"menus":[{"key":"menu1","items":[{"name":"News","link":"/","type":"title"},{"name":"Politics","link":"/politics"},{"name":"Science","link":"/science"},{"name":"Education","link":"/educationnews"},{"name":"Housing","link":"/housing"},{"name":"Immigration","link":"/immigration"},{"name":"Criminal Justice","link":"/criminaljustice"},{"name":"Silicon Valley","link":"/siliconvalley"},{"name":"Forum","link":"/forum"},{"name":"The California Report","link":"/californiareport"}]},{"key":"menu2","items":[{"name":"Arts & Culture","link":"/arts","type":"title"},{"name":"Critics’ Picks","link":"/thedolist"},{"name":"Cultural Commentary","link":"/artscommentary"},{"name":"Food & Drink","link":"/food"},{"name":"Bay Area Hip-Hop","link":"/bayareahiphop"},{"name":"Rebel Girls","link":"/rebelgirls"},{"name":"Arts Video","link":"/artsvideos"}]},{"key":"menu3","items":[{"name":"Podcasts","link":"/podcasts","type":"title"},{"name":"Bay Curious","link":"/podcasts/baycurious"},{"name":"Rightnowish","link":"/podcasts/rightnowish"},{"name":"The Bay","link":"/podcasts/thebay"},{"name":"On Our Watch","link":"/podcasts/onourwatch"},{"name":"Mindshift","link":"/podcasts/mindshift"},{"name":"Consider This","link":"/podcasts/considerthis"},{"name":"Political Breakdown","link":"/podcasts/politicalbreakdown"}]},{"key":"menu4","items":[{"name":"Live Radio","link":"/radio","type":"title"},{"name":"TV","link":"/tv","type":"title"},{"name":"Events","link":"/events","type":"title"},{"name":"For Educators","link":"/education","type":"title"},{"name":"Support KQED","link":"/support","type":"title"},{"name":"About","link":"/about","type":"title"},{"name":"Help Center","link":"https://kqed-helpcenter.kqed.org/s","type":"title"}]}]},"pagesReducer":{},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_11992428":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11992428","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11992428","score":null,"sort":[1720692058000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","publishDate":1720692058,"format":"standard","headTitle":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1720649629,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":113,"wordCount":3939},"headData":{"title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","description":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","datePublished":"2024-07-11T03:00:58-07:00","dateModified":"2024-07-10T15:13:49-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9653617813.mp3?updated=1720635145","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_28250","news_8"],"tags":["news_27626","news_2780","news_6627","news_20331"],"featImg":"news_11981905","label":"source_news_11992428"},"news_11991921":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11991921","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11991921","score":null,"sort":[1719482480000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","title":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay?","publishDate":1719482480,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for a culinary treasure: Dungeness crab. This winter, as the boat motored through the bay, Teaff wondered what other riches sat down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is at the bottom of the bay?” Teaff asked Bay Curious. And then, “I wonder if there’s any treasure down there?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the treasure front, the simple and tragic answer is: No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for precious metals, gems or valuable keepsakes, you probably won’t find them at the bottom of the bay. According to bay researchers and maritime experts, while there may be specks of gold mixed in with sediment that flowed into the bay during the Gold Rush, it’s not really worth salvaging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Literally no treasure to be found in the bay at all,” maritime archeologist, historian and author James Delgado said. “Other than history — that either can be studied or left to slowly sit there and…rust in peace.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, so no treasure. But let’s take a closer look at what is down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘The Titanic of San Francisco Bay’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To Delgado, and maybe to many of us, history \u003ci>is\u003c/i> the treasure. What the bay lacks in pirate booty, it makes up for in historical artifacts — like shipwrecks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a decade ago, Delgado mapped shipwrecks using sonar as the Director of the Maritime Heritage Program for NOAA, the U.S. agency tasked with monitoring our weather and oceans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s probably several dozen [shipwrecks] that sit in and around the entrance to the bay and in the bay itself,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2014, Delgado’s research team and collaborators used underwater robots to relocate one of the bay’s deadliest wrecks: a steamship named the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">west of the Golden Gate Bridge\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991926\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_j07-18337_gl.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991926\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white drawing of four masted ship on rough seas.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-800x473.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1020x604.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-160x95.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1536x909.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A painting of the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park safr_21374_j07-18337_gl)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1901, the ship arrived at San Francisco Bay in thick fog after a more than two-month voyage to China, Japan and Hawaii. It carried 210 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants. Around 5 a.m., the steamer headed through the fog into Fort Point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In total, 128 people died in the wreck. Many of the survivors were saved by early morning fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991928\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991928\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of desolate looking people surrounded by their belongings.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1158\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-800x483.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1020x615.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1536x926.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Survivors from the City of Rio de Janeiro shipwreck gathered at Baker Beach. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The large iron-hulled boat was swallowed by the bay. About a year and a half later, its pilot house floated to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In it was the skeleton of the captain who was identified by his gold watch,” Delgado said. “Its chain had tangled in his ribcage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that’s it for gold in the Rio. The only metal of value left now is tin, and that’s not worth salvaging, Delgado said. The ship is covered in mud and located near dangerous currents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This turns out to be true for many of the wrecks in the bay. The cost of reaching them could be greater than anything you might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The bay’s sunken ghost towns\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Why do ghost towns [fascinate] so many people?” asked Christopher Edwards, a park ranger at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/index.htm\">San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park\u003c/a>. “For me, a shipwreck site has that same fascination because it was where people existed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One wreck that stands out to Edwards is that of the Frank H. Buck, which now lies \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">off Lands End\u003c/a> in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On March 6, 1937, the oil tanker was making its way to San Francisco Bay from down the coast, in Ventura. It was a foggy day as the Frank H. Buck entered the Golden Gate. Nowadays, ships use \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/marine-radar\">radar\u003c/a> to detect each other in bad weather. But back then, the Buck just had its foghorn, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SS President Coolidge, a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers, headed West towards Hawaii, then Japan, which was nearby. Its foghorn was also blaring. But sound can bounce off the terrain near the Golden Gate and make it difficult to know precisely where you are, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both ships reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge. There, they collided, nose to nose. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991932\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 695px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991932\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo from above looking down on a large ship beginning to take on water and sink.\" width=\"695\" height=\"760\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg 695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2-160x175.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 695px) 100vw, 695px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Frank H. Buck’s front decks awash after the collision. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain shouted a plan over to the Buck captain. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> quoted him saying: “When we collided I megaphoned Captain Kelly of the Frank H. Buck to hold her where she was. ‘I’ll keep my bow in you,’ I said, ‘so you’ll stay afloat.’ Or words to that effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain held his position until rescue boats and the Coast Guard could get everyone off the Buck. Then, the Coolidge backed away. The body of the Frank H. Buck, which was more than 400 feet long, began sinking and was carried to the rocks off Lands End.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 985px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a half sunk ship just off shore.\" width=\"985\" height=\"770\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg 985w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-800x625.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-160x125.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 985px) 100vw, 985px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Buck sank, nose down, near Mile Rock Lighthouse. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park’s Visitor Center has a life ring from the Buck on display. Edwards hopes such artifacts will help visitors picture a seafaring life that, centuries ago, could have been theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Mud as treasure? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond shipwrecks, environmentalists say the bay floor is home to an even more unlikely treasure: mud. For a long time, mud was seen as a problem for the bay, said Julie Beagle, an estuarine geomorphologist. It had flowed into the bay from \u003ca href=\"https://ca.water.usgs.gov/pubs/2013/BarnardEtAl2013.pdf\">urban development, watersheds and mining\u003c/a> from the mid-1800s through the 1900’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The idea of keeping sediment out of the bay was really the guiding principle for a long time, as it should be,” Beagle said. “Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish, and [it] really clogged important spawning habitat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-011-9382-x\">Research around 2011 showed\u003c/a> that their plan was working. Between development regulations and some natural fluctuations, less sediment was floating in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/stormsurge-stormtide.html\">storm surges\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/saltmarsh.html\">absorbing floodwaters\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep,” Beagle said. “We need to maintain it in the system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To build the marshes back up and fortify them against sea-level rise, scientists would need a lot of mud — approximately \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfei.org/sites/default/files/biblio_files/Sediment-for-Survival-factsheet_1.pdf\">450 million cubic yards\u003c/a>, by some estimates. Beagle started working for the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge mud in ports so ships can navigate the bay. There, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They recently launched a pilot project to try building up Bay marshlands with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay, along with collaborators from the U.S. Geological Survey and other local and government partners. It’s the first time this method is being tested in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is such a place-based thing to me,” said Beagle, who was born and raised in Oakland. “It really requires understanding of the watersheds, of the landscape, of the people, of the values.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December, the team moved 90,000 cubic yards of dredged sediment from the Port of Redwood City to the shores of Eden Landing, an eroding marsh near Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Stories/Article/3644567/shallow-water-strategic-placement-pilot-project-kicks-off-in-san-francisco-bay/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A square, blue modern looking boat chugs out into the bay.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1356\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-800x565.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1020x720.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1536x1085.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A dredge loads a boat with sediment, destined for eroding marshlands at Eden Landing. \u003ccite>(Brandon Beach/US Army Corps of Engineers)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If the pilot study achieves its goal, the marshes will stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise. Next, Beagle hopes to test the method at other bay marshlands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really this move, nationally and internationally toward nature-based adaptation to all the climate risks that we face,” Beagle said. “Because we know that the way we’ve done business for the last 150 years is not going to solve the problems of the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the bay, just maybe not the type you expected. But if the artifacts down there tie us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered fishing trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for Dungeness crab. They leave before dawn and motor out through the Bay, under the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>There’s crazy stuff going on. I mean, there’s all kinds of water and it’s moving in all directions, and you can just tell the bay is just deep there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This winter, Brian stood on the boat and looked into the swirling abyss below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Riding on the Bay going, there’s a lot of water that moves through here. And what’s underneath? I know there’s fish, what else is there? So it was just what’s underneath the water?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Are there maybe … shipwrecks down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>And then of course, you know, the next question is, oh, boy, I wonder if there’s any treasure down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Treasure like precious metals, gems, valuable keepsakes. If you ask Brian to answer his own question, he says:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>I think that it’s probably just full of mud down there. But boy, I’d like to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme song starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Brian wrote to Bay Curious, to learn more about what’s at the bottom of the Bay. Today on the show, we’ll hear about two shipwrecks that haunt Bay Area lore. Plus, we’ll go searching for treasure and find it in something … unexpected. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Like many of us, KQED Reporter Anna Marie Yanny lives a short walk from the Bay. Like our question-asker Brian, she was eager to find out what’s down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The first thing that came to my mind was the beginning of the \u003ci>Little Mermaid\u003c/i> movie. Mermaid Ariel and her fish friend, Flounder, are diving in a shipwreck looking for treasures. Could there be any wrecks at the bottom of the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[The Little Mermaid movie clip starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Flounder:\u003c/b> Ariel, wait for me!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ariel:\u003c/b> Wow, have you seen anything so incredible in your entire life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I had to talk to James Delgado. He’s a renowned maritime archeologist and has worn many hats in the field. And back in the 70s, he was the first historian for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>Those early years at the park were magic because we were literally just new as a national park, and everything needed to be done. So, we conducted wide-sweeping inventories and explorations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>He dove in the muddy waters of the bay in search of shipwrecks. And decades later, he mapped them with federal researchers, using sonar. I asked him just how many wrecks are in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>There’s probably several dozen that sit in and around the entrance to the Bay and in the Bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>A few wrecks stand out to him and other historians. He tells me about one of the deadliest, a steamship called the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. Named for the city in Brazil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>James and a team of researchers and underwater robots used sonar to relocate this wreck in 2014. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel west of Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was February 1901. The Rio was sailing to San Francisco from Asia \u003ci>[sounds of waves and wind] \u003c/i>after an over two-month voyage to China, Japan, Hawaii. It was a big iron-hulled ship and had three masts, with sails billowing off them. Around 5 a.m., shrouded in fog, it headed towards Fort Point carrying more than 200 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a collision]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Less than half the passengers survived. Many who did were saved by early morning fishermen. There’s photos of them gathered at Baker Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The wreck itself disappeared. Though it remained intact enough that months later, the pilot house tore free, and in it was the skeleton of the captain, who was identified by his gold watch, which its chain had tangled in his ribcage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But no, he says there’s no more gold down there — maybe tin, but nothing salvageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, I was told, many of those few dozen shipwrecks in and around the Bay are hard to reach. They’re covered in mud that ran down from the Sierras during the Gold Rush or near currents rushing in and out of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wanted to know what other shipwrecks sat in the fathoms below, so I went to the San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of waves, seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The park sits on the water across from Ghirardelli Square. It has a ship-shaped museum and a visitor and research center dedicated to West Coast maritime history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m here on a foggy morning. It’s cold. Brave open-water swimmers glide past these pirate-ship-looking boats docked at Hyde Street Pier. Each of the ships have narrowly avoided becoming wrecks themselves, and are instead retired in the park, and open to visitors on the weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape:\u003c/b> Wow, this is awesome. I can’t believe I haven’t been yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards:\u003c/b> We can certainly sort of get a feel for the place, take a walk through. We could also…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Park Ranger Christopher Edwards lets me into the Visitor Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, he tells me about another wreck. An oil tanker called the Frank H. Buck. He brings me back to the day of the wreck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>It was like a worse version of today. You know, today we’ve got sort of the classic morning San Francisco fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sounds of foghorns, water lapping, creaking boat]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was March 6, 1937. The Frank H Buck tanker was coming into San Francisco Bay with oil from just down the coast, in Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher says it was a working ship, and the 30 to 40 person crew were probably dressed in modest work clothes. And nearby, the SS President Coolidge was a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers headed outbound…west towards Hawaii, then Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, Christopher says the few-hundred-person crew were dressed in uniform, and the ship was organized by class — with the low-ranking crew traveling through below-deck passages to avoid disturbing the passengers. On that foggy day, both ship’s crews were using foghorns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>But the Golden Gate, which is the entrance into the bay, you know, it’s steep sided. And so those foghorns help, but the sound bounces around off the terrain. And it just makes it really difficult to know precisely where you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>They both reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>And until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other. And everything happens in slow motion with a ship. You can tell that a disaster is about to happen. But as soon as you realize that that disaster is happening, it might be too late to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The ships collided. Nose to nose. The lookout at Lands End \u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/farallones-shipwrecks/FRANK_H_BUCK_LYMAN_STEWART-Fact_Sheet.pdf\">said\u003c/a> it sounded like a booming Presidio gun through the fog. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck. And it’s Captain thought fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>He didn’t want to pull his ship back immediately and realized deliberately that if he did that, the Buck could sink very quickly.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The Coolidge captain shouted to the Buck captain. They were that close. They got everyone off the Buck. The crew was loaded into lifeboats and paddled away from the ship before the Coolidge backed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>The photographs, what they seem to capture is just the crew knowing what they needed to do and ensuring that nobody got hurt, nobody was left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>What was left behind was the massive body of the Frank H Buck, which began sinking, nose down. It was carried by currents to the rocks off Lands End. Oil pooled out of it, like blood, from the once hearty vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The body of an oil tanker likely didn’t have any treasure. And honestly, Christopher says, the bottom of the bay probably doesn’t have the type of treasure our question asker Brian was asking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>What’s underneath? Is there gold? Is there other precious valuables down there? To the best of my knowledge. The short answer is no. But there’s a treasure down there. I’d say absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Christopher says, despite there being no gold, we have a lot to learn from wrecks like these.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>There’s archeological treasures down there. There’s stuff that tells you that somebody just like you existed there, that was their home, that was their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I thought back to Ariel in \u003ci>The Little Mermaid\u003c/i>. To her, treasures were relics of the human world. Candlesticks, wine stoppers…a fork. Hints of a world that wasn’t hers, but could have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ariel — and to Christopher — and maybe to many of us — history is its own kind of treasure. Not the type our question asker hoped for, but something of value nonetheless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On our way out, Christopher shows me a model of the entrance to San Francisco Bay, complete with a hand-sized Golden Gate bridge. Along the entrance to the bay, the names of about 50 wrecks are written in red. All their graveyards. All little ghost towns. All ships that needed to move between the big, open ocean and the thin ship channel that enters San Francisco Bay. All ships that didn’t quite make it. But still have a story to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow! I had no idea about those shipwrecks. But I do wish there had been some gold, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Yeah, I asked around and seriously, no. Maybe flecks of gold mixed in with the sediment.. leftover from the Gold Rush, but nothing worth trying to collect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it could be dangerous trying to reach some of these shipwrecks — James says the first team that tried to reach the Rio wreck lost their robot because of the strong currents down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That also sounds super costly!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> But to James and Christoper, it sounds like the treasure really is the history, and how it can help you picture the life that someone else had. Also….there’s another treasure learned about that I wanted to tell you about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What’s that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The other treasure is….Mud\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Mud?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Mud. Go with me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until about 15 years ago, environmentalists thought of mud as a nuisance in the bay. It flowed in from urban development, watersheds and mining through the mid-18 and 1900s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish and really clogged important spawning habitat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>That’s Julie Beagle. She’s an estuarine geomorphologist. Meaning she studies how water and sediment move to shape estuaries like the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The idea of keeping sediment, keeping development out of the Bay was really the guiding principle for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But around 2011 Julie and her colleagues began to change how they think about mud. They’d been successful at keeping it out. But, between that and some natural fluctuations, there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep. We need to maintain it in the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Not pirate treasure like our question asker wanted, but certainly treasure to scientists. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking storm surges and absorbing floodwaters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>As we adapt to sea-level rise, I think the world has this choice. Are we going to adapt with walls, with rock, with riprap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Or do we adapt with natural infrastructure, like marshes? To rebuild marshes that are at risk of drowning from sea-level rise, Julie and her colleagues would need a lot of this — now treasured mud — from the bottom of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They turned to the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge the mud in ports so ships can navigate the Bay. Julie applied to work for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Part of the reason I switched to the Army Corps is I said, who has the sediment, and how can we get that sediment to the places that it needs to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Now, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team. Along with the Corps and collaborators at the USGS and other local and government partners, Julie is using mud in pilot studies. They’re hoping bay marshlands can be built back up with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay. They tried this method for the first time in December.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle:\u003c/b> We placed 90,000 cubic yards in 169 trips. So the boats were going back and forth 24 hours a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Down at the Port of Redwood City, a dredge with a clamshell mouth loaded a flat bottom boat over and over until it was full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of a crane dumping mud into a boat]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Then a tugboat pushed that boat just across the Bay\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat motor]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>To the shores of Eden Landing, near Hayward. There, Julie says, the marshes have been eroding. Ponds behind it have been breached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat moving]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats reached about a mile offshore. It was a spot strategically chosen so the sediment will be carried towards the marshes by waves and tides naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And then the bottom just opens up and the sediment just comes down. And it happened so fast. It’s like 13 seconds. It was just like a “juh–zoupp!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>So. the bottom of the boat just opens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The bottom of the boat just opens\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>No way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>It places the material, and then the boat would go back and get another scow and come do it over and over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>One hundred and…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>169 times. 24 hours a day. They took Christmas off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>Wow, that’s incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And I’ve never been so excited to move dirt from one place to another in the Bay, you know?…\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats went back and forth nearly the whole month of December. Julie says if the pilot achieves its goal, and the marshes stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise, she hopes to someday give them regular boosts of mud every few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the Bay, just maybe not the type you expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the history down there ties us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold. Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Anna Marie Yanny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Brian Teaff for asking this week’s question. And thanks to Peter Pearsall from the USGS for the boat sounds from Julie’s mud pilot project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are off next week for the July 4 holiday — back in your podcast feeds on July 11.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This episode was edited by Kevin Stark and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Produced by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> And me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Special shout-out this week to Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour:\u003c/b> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own name:\u003c/b> Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"At the bottom of San Francisco Bay and near the Golden Gate Bridge lie dozens of shipwrecks, but their “treasure” isn't conventional. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1719517268,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":159,"wordCount":4594},"headData":{"title":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay? | KQED","description":"At the bottom of San Francisco Bay and near the Golden Gate Bridge lie dozens of shipwrecks, but their “treasure” isn't conventional. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Is There Treasure At the Bottom Of San Francisco Bay?","datePublished":"2024-06-27T03:01:20-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-27T12:41:08-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC7646914526.mp3?updated=1719436254","sticky":false,"nprByline":"Anna Marie Yanny","nprStoryId":"kqed-11991921","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11991921/is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for a culinary treasure: Dungeness crab. This winter, as the boat motored through the bay, Teaff wondered what other riches sat down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is at the bottom of the bay?” Teaff asked Bay Curious. And then, “I wonder if there’s any treasure down there?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the treasure front, the simple and tragic answer is: No.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re looking for precious metals, gems or valuable keepsakes, you probably won’t find them at the bottom of the bay. According to bay researchers and maritime experts, while there may be specks of gold mixed in with sediment that flowed into the bay during the Gold Rush, it’s not really worth salvaging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Literally no treasure to be found in the bay at all,” maritime archeologist, historian and author James Delgado said. “Other than history — that either can be studied or left to slowly sit there and…rust in peace.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, so no treasure. But let’s take a closer look at what is down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>‘The Titanic of San Francisco Bay’\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To Delgado, and maybe to many of us, history \u003ci>is\u003c/i> the treasure. What the bay lacks in pirate booty, it makes up for in historical artifacts — like shipwrecks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a decade ago, Delgado mapped shipwrecks using sonar as the Director of the Maritime Heritage Program for NOAA, the U.S. agency tasked with monitoring our weather and oceans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s probably several dozen [shipwrecks] that sit in and around the entrance to the bay and in the bay itself,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2014, Delgado’s research team and collaborators used underwater robots to relocate one of the bay’s deadliest wrecks: a steamship named the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">west of the Golden Gate Bridge\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991926\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_j07-18337_gl.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991926\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white drawing of four masted ship on rough seas.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1136\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-800x473.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1020x604.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-160x95.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/city-of-rio-janeiro_san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-sized-1536x909.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A painting of the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park safr_21374_j07-18337_gl)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1901, the ship arrived at San Francisco Bay in thick fog after a more than two-month voyage to China, Japan and Hawaii. It carried 210 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants. Around 5 a.m., the steamer headed through the fog into Fort Point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out,” Delgado said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In total, 128 people died in the wreck. Many of the survivors were saved by early morning fishermen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991928\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/shipwrecks/city-of-rio-de-janeiro/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991928\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of desolate looking people surrounded by their belongings.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1158\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-800x483.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1020x615.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/survivors-san-francisco-maritime-national-historical-park-_safr_21374_a11-14617_p-sized-1536x926.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Survivors from the City of Rio de Janeiro shipwreck gathered at Baker Beach. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The large iron-hulled boat was swallowed by the bay. About a year and a half later, its pilot house floated to the surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In it was the skeleton of the captain who was identified by his gold watch,” Delgado said. “Its chain had tangled in his ribcage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that’s it for gold in the Rio. The only metal of value left now is tin, and that’s not worth salvaging, Delgado said. The ship is covered in mud and located near dangerous currents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This turns out to be true for many of the wrecks in the bay. The cost of reaching them could be greater than anything you might recover.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The bay’s sunken ghost towns\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Why do ghost towns [fascinate] so many people?” asked Christopher Edwards, a park ranger at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/index.htm\">San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park\u003c/a>. “For me, a shipwreck site has that same fascination because it was where people existed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One wreck that stands out to Edwards is that of the Frank H. Buck, which now lies \u003ca href=\"https://farallones.noaa.gov/heritage/shipwreck-storymap.html\">off Lands End\u003c/a> in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On March 6, 1937, the oil tanker was making its way to San Francisco Bay from down the coast, in Ventura. It was a foggy day as the Frank H. Buck entered the Golden Gate. Nowadays, ships use \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/marine-radar\">radar\u003c/a> to detect each other in bad weather. But back then, the Buck just had its foghorn, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SS President Coolidge, a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers, headed West towards Hawaii, then Japan, which was nearby. Its foghorn was also blaring. But sound can bounce off the terrain near the Golden Gate and make it difficult to know precisely where you are, Edwards said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both ships reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge. There, they collided, nose to nose. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991932\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 695px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991932\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo from above looking down on a large ship beginning to take on water and sink.\" width=\"695\" height=\"760\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2.jpeg 695w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-2-160x175.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 695px) 100vw, 695px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Frank H. Buck’s front decks awash after the collision. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain shouted a plan over to the Buck captain. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> quoted him saying: “When we collided I megaphoned Captain Kelly of the Frank H. Buck to hold her where she was. ‘I’ll keep my bow in you,’ I said, ‘so you’ll stay afloat.’ Or words to that effect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Coolidge captain held his position until rescue boats and the Coast Guard could get everyone off the Buck. Then, the Coolidge backed away. The body of the Frank H. Buck, which was more than 400 feet long, began sinking and was carried to the rocks off Lands End.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991933\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 985px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991933\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a half sunk ship just off shore.\" width=\"985\" height=\"770\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4.jpeg 985w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-800x625.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Buck-sinks_photo-4-160x125.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 985px) 100vw, 985px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Buck sank, nose down, near Mile Rock Lighthouse. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Maritime NHP Collections)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park’s Visitor Center has a life ring from the Buck on display. Edwards hopes such artifacts will help visitors picture a seafaring life that, centuries ago, could have been theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Mud as treasure? \u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Beyond shipwrecks, environmentalists say the bay floor is home to an even more unlikely treasure: mud. For a long time, mud was seen as a problem for the bay, said Julie Beagle, an estuarine geomorphologist. It had flowed into the bay from \u003ca href=\"https://ca.water.usgs.gov/pubs/2013/BarnardEtAl2013.pdf\">urban development, watersheds and mining\u003c/a> from the mid-1800s through the 1900’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The idea of keeping sediment out of the bay was really the guiding principle for a long time, as it should be,” Beagle said. “Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish, and [it] really clogged important spawning habitat.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12237-011-9382-x\">Research around 2011 showed\u003c/a> that their plan was working. Between development regulations and some natural fluctuations, less sediment was floating in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/stormsurge-stormtide.html\">storm surges\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/saltmarsh.html\">absorbing floodwaters\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep,” Beagle said. “We need to maintain it in the system.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To build the marshes back up and fortify them against sea-level rise, scientists would need a lot of mud — approximately \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfei.org/sites/default/files/biblio_files/Sediment-for-Survival-factsheet_1.pdf\">450 million cubic yards\u003c/a>, by some estimates. Beagle started working for the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge mud in ports so ships can navigate the bay. There, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They recently launched a pilot project to try building up Bay marshlands with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay, along with collaborators from the U.S. Geological Survey and other local and government partners. It’s the first time this method is being tested in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is such a place-based thing to me,” said Beagle, who was born and raised in Oakland. “It really requires understanding of the watersheds, of the landscape, of the people, of the values.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In December, the team moved 90,000 cubic yards of dredged sediment from the Port of Redwood City to the shores of Eden Landing, an eroding marsh near Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11991934\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.spn.usace.army.mil/Media/News-Stories/Article/3644567/shallow-water-strategic-placement-pilot-project-kicks-off-in-san-francisco-bay/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11991934\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A square, blue modern looking boat chugs out into the bay.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1356\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-800x565.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1020x720.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-160x113.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/mud-boat-sized-1536x1085.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A dredge loads a boat with sediment, destined for eroding marshlands at Eden Landing. \u003ccite>(Brandon Beach/US Army Corps of Engineers)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If the pilot study achieves its goal, the marshes will stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise. Next, Beagle hopes to test the method at other bay marshlands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really this move, nationally and internationally toward nature-based adaptation to all the climate risks that we face,” Beagle said. “Because we know that the way we’ve done business for the last 150 years is not going to solve the problems of the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the bay, just maybe not the type you expected. But if the artifacts down there tie us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nOlivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every winter, Brian Teaff takes a chartered fishing trip from the Berkeley Marina to go fishing for Dungeness crab. They leave before dawn and motor out through the Bay, under the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>There’s crazy stuff going on. I mean, there’s all kinds of water and it’s moving in all directions, and you can just tell the bay is just deep there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This winter, Brian stood on the boat and looked into the swirling abyss below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Riding on the Bay going, there’s a lot of water that moves through here. And what’s underneath? I know there’s fish, what else is there? So it was just what’s underneath the water?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Are there maybe … shipwrecks down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>And then of course, you know, the next question is, oh, boy, I wonder if there’s any treasure down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Treasure like precious metals, gems, valuable keepsakes. If you ask Brian to answer his own question, he says:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>I think that it’s probably just full of mud down there. But boy, I’d like to know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Bay Curious theme song starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Brian wrote to Bay Curious, to learn more about what’s at the bottom of the Bay. Today on the show, we’ll hear about two shipwrecks that haunt Bay Area lore. Plus, we’ll go searching for treasure and find it in something … unexpected. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Like many of us, KQED Reporter Anna Marie Yanny lives a short walk from the Bay. Like our question-asker Brian, she was eager to find out what’s down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The first thing that came to my mind was the beginning of the \u003ci>Little Mermaid\u003c/i> movie. Mermaid Ariel and her fish friend, Flounder, are diving in a shipwreck looking for treasures. Could there be any wrecks at the bottom of the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[The Little Mermaid movie clip starts]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Flounder:\u003c/b> Ariel, wait for me!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ariel:\u003c/b> Wow, have you seen anything so incredible in your entire life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I had to talk to James Delgado. He’s a renowned maritime archeologist and has worn many hats in the field. And back in the 70s, he was the first historian for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>Those early years at the park were magic because we were literally just new as a national park, and everything needed to be done. So, we conducted wide-sweeping inventories and explorations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>He dove in the muddy waters of the bay in search of shipwrecks. And decades later, he mapped them with federal researchers, using sonar. I asked him just how many wrecks are in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>There’s probably several dozen that sit in and around the entrance to the Bay and in the Bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>A few wrecks stand out to him and other historians. He tells me about one of the deadliest, a steamship called the SS City of Rio de Janeiro. Named for the city in Brazil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>James and a team of researchers and underwater robots used sonar to relocate this wreck in 2014. It’s around five semi-trucks long and lies at the bottom of a deep channel west of Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The SS City of Rio de Janeiro was literally the Titanic of San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music starts playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was February 1901. The Rio was sailing to San Francisco from Asia \u003ci>[sounds of waves and wind] \u003c/i>after an over two-month voyage to China, Japan, Hawaii. It was a big iron-hulled ship and had three masts, with sails billowing off them. Around 5 a.m., shrouded in fog, it headed towards Fort Point carrying more than 200 people — many of them Chinese and Japanese immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of a collision]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>It hit the rocks and backed off and sank so rapidly that many people who were still asleep in their cabins never had a chance to get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Less than half the passengers survived. Many who did were saved by early morning fishermen. There’s photos of them gathered at Baker Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>James Delgado: \u003c/b>The wreck itself disappeared. Though it remained intact enough that months later, the pilot house tore free, and in it was the skeleton of the captain, who was identified by his gold watch, which its chain had tangled in his ribcage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But no, he says there’s no more gold down there — maybe tin, but nothing salvageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, I was told, many of those few dozen shipwrecks in and around the Bay are hard to reach. They’re covered in mud that ran down from the Sierras during the Gold Rush or near currents rushing in and out of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I wanted to know what other shipwrecks sat in the fathoms below, so I went to the San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sounds of waves, seagulls]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The park sits on the water across from Ghirardelli Square. It has a ship-shaped museum and a visitor and research center dedicated to West Coast maritime history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m here on a foggy morning. It’s cold. Brave open-water swimmers glide past these pirate-ship-looking boats docked at Hyde Street Pier. Each of the ships have narrowly avoided becoming wrecks themselves, and are instead retired in the park, and open to visitors on the weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape:\u003c/b> Wow, this is awesome. I can’t believe I haven’t been yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards:\u003c/b> We can certainly sort of get a feel for the place, take a walk through. We could also…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Park Ranger Christopher Edwards lets me into the Visitor Center.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, he tells me about another wreck. An oil tanker called the Frank H. Buck. He brings me back to the day of the wreck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>It was like a worse version of today. You know, today we’ve got sort of the classic morning San Francisco fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sounds of foghorns, water lapping, creaking boat]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>It was March 6, 1937. The Frank H Buck tanker was coming into San Francisco Bay with oil from just down the coast, in Ventura.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher says it was a working ship, and the 30 to 40 person crew were probably dressed in modest work clothes. And nearby, the SS President Coolidge was a luxury liner carrying about 700 passengers headed outbound…west towards Hawaii, then Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There, Christopher says the few-hundred-person crew were dressed in uniform, and the ship was organized by class — with the low-ranking crew traveling through below-deck passages to avoid disturbing the passengers. On that foggy day, both ship’s crews were using foghorns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>But the Golden Gate, which is the entrance into the bay, you know, it’s steep sided. And so those foghorns help, but the sound bounces around off the terrain. And it just makes it really difficult to know precisely where you are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>They both reached the Western side of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>And until the last minute, they didn’t realize they were going directly at each other. And everything happens in slow motion with a ship. You can tell that a disaster is about to happen. But as soon as you realize that that disaster is happening, it might be too late to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The ships collided. Nose to nose. The lookout at Lands End \u003ca href=\"https://nmssanctuaries.blob.core.windows.net/sanctuaries-prod/media/archive/farallones-shipwrecks/FRANK_H_BUCK_LYMAN_STEWART-Fact_Sheet.pdf\">said\u003c/a> it sounded like a booming Presidio gun through the fog. The luxury Coolidge punctured the Buck. And it’s Captain thought fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>He didn’t want to pull his ship back immediately and realized deliberately that if he did that, the Buck could sink very quickly.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The Coolidge captain shouted to the Buck captain. They were that close. They got everyone off the Buck. The crew was loaded into lifeboats and paddled away from the ship before the Coolidge backed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>The photographs, what they seem to capture is just the crew knowing what they needed to do and ensuring that nobody got hurt, nobody was left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>What was left behind was the massive body of the Frank H Buck, which began sinking, nose down. It was carried by currents to the rocks off Lands End. Oil pooled out of it, like blood, from the once hearty vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The body of an oil tanker likely didn’t have any treasure. And honestly, Christopher says, the bottom of the bay probably doesn’t have the type of treasure our question asker Brian was asking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>What’s underneath? Is there gold? Is there other precious valuables down there? To the best of my knowledge. The short answer is no. But there’s a treasure down there. I’d say absolutely.\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Christopher says, despite there being no gold, we have a lot to learn from wrecks like these.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Edwards: \u003c/b>There’s archeological treasures down there. There’s stuff that tells you that somebody just like you existed there, that was their home, that was their community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>I thought back to Ariel in \u003ci>The Little Mermaid\u003c/i>. To her, treasures were relics of the human world. Candlesticks, wine stoppers…a fork. Hints of a world that wasn’t hers, but could have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ariel — and to Christopher — and maybe to many of us — history is its own kind of treasure. Not the type our question asker hoped for, but something of value nonetheless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On our way out, Christopher shows me a model of the entrance to San Francisco Bay, complete with a hand-sized Golden Gate bridge. Along the entrance to the bay, the names of about 50 wrecks are written in red. All their graveyards. All little ghost towns. All ships that needed to move between the big, open ocean and the thin ship channel that enters San Francisco Bay. All ships that didn’t quite make it. But still have a story to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Music playing]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Wow! I had no idea about those shipwrecks. But I do wish there had been some gold, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Yeah, I asked around and seriously, no. Maybe flecks of gold mixed in with the sediment.. leftover from the Gold Rush, but nothing worth trying to collect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it could be dangerous trying to reach some of these shipwrecks — James says the first team that tried to reach the Rio wreck lost their robot because of the strong currents down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That also sounds super costly!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> But to James and Christoper, it sounds like the treasure really is the history, and how it can help you picture the life that someone else had. Also….there’s another treasure learned about that I wanted to tell you about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> What’s that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> The other treasure is….Mud\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Mud?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny:\u003c/b> Mud. Go with me here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Until about 15 years ago, environmentalists thought of mud as a nuisance in the bay. It flowed in from urban development, watersheds and mining through the mid-18 and 1900s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Macroinvertebrates couldn’t live, and there wasn’t enough food for the fish and really clogged important spawning habitat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>That’s Julie Beagle. She’s an estuarine geomorphologist. Meaning she studies how water and sediment move to shape estuaries like the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The idea of keeping sediment, keeping development out of the Bay was really the guiding principle for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>But around 2011 Julie and her colleagues began to change how they think about mud. They’d been successful at keeping it out. But, between that and some natural fluctuations, there was a new problem. With less sediment being deposited onto the bay’s marshes, sea-level rise was threatening to erode them away. Suddenly, mud didn’t seem so bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Sediment is this treasure that we need to keep. We need to maintain it in the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Not pirate treasure like our question asker wanted, but certainly treasure to scientists. The bay’s marshes don’t just provide good views and habitat for endangered species, they also protect bay neighborhoods and highways from flooding by blocking storm surges and absorbing floodwaters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>As we adapt to sea-level rise, I think the world has this choice. Are we going to adapt with walls, with rock, with riprap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Or do we adapt with natural infrastructure, like marshes? To rebuild marshes that are at risk of drowning from sea-level rise, Julie and her colleagues would need a lot of this — now treasured mud — from the bottom of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They turned to the local district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, who regularly dredge the mud in ports so ships can navigate the Bay. Julie applied to work for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>Part of the reason I switched to the Army Corps is I said, who has the sediment, and how can we get that sediment to the places that it needs to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Now, she helps lead their “Engineering with Nature” team. Along with the Corps and collaborators at the USGS and other local and government partners, Julie is using mud in pilot studies. They’re hoping bay marshlands can be built back up with routine doses of mud from the bottom of the bay. They tried this method for the first time in December.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle:\u003c/b> We placed 90,000 cubic yards in 169 trips. So the boats were going back and forth 24 hours a day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Down at the Port of Redwood City, a dredge with a clamshell mouth loaded a flat bottom boat over and over until it was full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of a crane dumping mud into a boat]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>Then a tugboat pushed that boat just across the Bay\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat motor]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>To the shores of Eden Landing, near Hayward. There, Julie says, the marshes have been eroding. Ponds behind it have been breached.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Sound of boat moving]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats reached about a mile offshore. It was a spot strategically chosen so the sediment will be carried towards the marshes by waves and tides naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And then the bottom just opens up and the sediment just comes down. And it happened so fast. It’s like 13 seconds. It was just like a “juh–zoupp!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>So. the bottom of the boat just opens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>The bottom of the boat just opens\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>No way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>It places the material, and then the boat would go back and get another scow and come do it over and over again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>One hundred and…?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>169 times. 24 hours a day. They took Christmas off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny in tape: \u003c/b>Wow, that’s incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Beagle: \u003c/b>And I’ve never been so excited to move dirt from one place to another in the Bay, you know?…\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna Marie Yanny: \u003c/b>The boats went back and forth nearly the whole month of December. Julie says if the pilot achieves its goal, and the marshes stay healthy and fortified against sea-level rise, she hopes to someday give them regular boosts of mud every few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, there you have it. There is treasure at the bottom of the Bay, just maybe not the type you expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the history down there ties us to our past, and the mud helps us ensure our future, maybe that’s more valuable than gold. Although, some gold would have been nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Anna Marie Yanny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Brian Teaff for asking this week’s question. And thanks to Peter Pearsall from the USGS for the boat sounds from Julie’s mud pilot project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are off next week for the July 4 holiday — back in your podcast feeds on July 11.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brian Teaff: \u003c/b>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>This episode was edited by Kevin Stark and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Produced by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b> And me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Special shout-out this week to Chris Egusa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour:\u003c/b> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own name:\u003c/b> Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11991921/is-there-treasure-at-the-bottom-of-san-francisco-bay","authors":["byline_news_11991921"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_34165","news_19906","news_28250","news_8","news_356"],"tags":["news_6627","news_34226","news_3553"],"featImg":"news_11991940","label":"source_news_11991921"},"news_11991017":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11991017","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11991017","score":null,"sort":[1718877619000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","title":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay","publishDate":1718877619,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003ch2>Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I want to take you back to April 1961. It’s a Sunday, and copies of the \u003cem>Oakland Tribune\u003c/em> newspaper are hitting doorsteps all over the East Bay. A big article inside was getting a lot of attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The San Francisco Bay — Big, briny and beautiful. The “meal ticket” that brought 4 million people here has been shrinking rapidly due to man. How much more will the next two decades diminish the waterway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Those were the opening lines of the article written by reporter Ed Salzman. He’d recently seen a map from the Army Corps of Engineers that showed all the projects being considered by local governments that would fill in the Bay — creating land where there was once water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>To lovers of the Bay, the prospect is anything but pretty. By 2020, the Bay could be little more than a wide river.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The story was picked up by other newspapers, and soon sparked an environmental revolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13911567/the-1960s-women-whose-environmental-activism-saved-the-bay\">we’re spotlighting three women who saw the future laid out in those newspaper articles and decided to do something about it\u003c/a>. Their efforts to \u003ci>Save the Bay\u003c/i> had a ripple effect that changed our landscape, \u003ci>and state politics\u003c/i>, forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It features recordings from the UC Berkeley Oral history center — which are awesome because it means we get to hear \u003ci>firsthand\u003c/i> from historic change makers. But technology has come a long way since these were recorded, so you may need to listen a little closer than usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stick around at the end of the episode for more \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">details about the Voices for the Environment exhibition.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>In the early 1960s, California was already the most populated state in the nation, and the Bay Area was becoming a crowded place. Developers needed land, and they were looking to fill in the Bay to create more of it. But as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>’s Sasha Khokha tells us, some local residents were \u003ci>not \u003c/i>keen on this plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The Army Corps map published in the newspaper sent shockwaves around the region. And it alarmed three Berkeley residents: Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Esther Gulick and Sylvia McLaughlin. They recalled that moment when they were interviewed together for an oral history project in 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>When the Army Corps map appeared in the \u003ci>Oakland\u003c/i> \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i> showing that the Bay would end up being a river by 2020 because of all the fill, it was clear to me that this was certainly a possible train of events, and it needed to be stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>And I was totally appalled, reading in the [\u003ci>Berkeley\u003c/i>] \u003ci>Gazette\u003c/i>, of the city manager’s dream to fill over 2,000 acres in front of Berkeley. And this was one of the things that galvanized us into action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>About two weeks later, Esther came over. We were sitting in the living room, and it was a beautiful day, and the Bay was very blue. I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The three Berkeley women started having regular meetings in the spring of 1961. They fit squarely within a well-established Bay Area tradition of environmental activists. They were white. They were highly educated and they were well-connected in local and state political circles. You might recognize Catherine Kerr, as the wife of former UC President Clark Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They read city council plans, consulted with academics on the Berkeley campus, and then called a meeting of the leading environmental organizations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>The three of us had decided that we were not conservationists and this was a really terrible problem. We were going to tell them about the problem, and then we expected they would carry the ball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>We weren’t going to form an organization at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>We didn’t have any of the expertise. We explained about the Army Corps map. there were maybe eighty square miles of fill already proposed by various cities around the Bay. And so we said, “This is the problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One by one the environmental leaders in the room agreed that saving the Bay was important. But they also said it was not something their groups could take on. Kay Kerr remembered Dave Brower from the Sierra Club saying:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>“Well, it’s just exceedingly important, but the Sierra Club is interested in wilderness and in trails.” Then the next guy, Newton Drury, said, “Well, this is very important, but we’re saving the redwoods, and we can’t save the Bay.” And then it went around the room to the point where there was dead silence. So we said, “Well, the Bay is going to go down the drain.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But Kerr said there was one way the Sierra Club offered to help:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>Dave Brower said, “Now there’s only one thing to do: start a new organization, and we’ll give you all our mailing lists.” And they all wished us a great deal of luck when they went out the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: T\u003c/b>hey said, “Someone should really do something about this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>It turned out that we were the somebodies.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>And that’s how these three Berkeley women found themselves starting the Save San Francisco Bay Association. And those other environmental groups they did follow through in one important way. They shared their mailing lists. Out of the first 700 mailers the three women sent out, they got about 600 pledges of support. Within a month, Save San Francisco Bay had secured a solid membership base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>They just couldn’t believe it, you know. They, like us, thought the Bay belonged to us, the Bay belonged to everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One of the group’s first tasks was to push back against Berkeley’s plan to double the size of the city by filling in more than 2,000 acres of shoreline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The activists showed up in droves to Berkeley City Council meetings to object to the plan. And they flooded the mailboxes of elected officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I would say that was one of our very first lessons, that if you were going to save the Bay, you had to have the support, and you had to educate the politicians. And the second thing was that you couldn’t educate them or get their support without facts. So we spent a great deal of time on collecting facts and then educating everybody that would listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>Our members were very responsive. We would suggest that they attend critical city council meetings and they would. Sometimes the following city council meeting would be wall to wall with chamber of commerce people. It went back and forth like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>In the end, members of the Save San Francisco Bay Association won. In 1963, the Berkeley city council rescinded its plan to fill in the Bay. It was a big victory for environmentalists and it would change Berkeley and the larger Bay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But there was a problem. The victory in Berkeley only went so far. Other cities around the bay had dozens of other fill plans in the works. The three Berkeley activists knew something had to be done in \u003ci>Sacramento\u003c/i> if they were really going to save the \u003ci>whole\u003c/i> bay. Kay Kerr used her political connections to get a meeting with state Senator Eugene McAteer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McAteer was born in San Francisco and was a powerhouse in Bay Area politics. He was a builder, and he had a track record of supporting development and infrastructure projects, like freeways, universities and dams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he could tell that the issue of whether or not to fill in the Bay was a significant one. He’d seen the legislature stall over this debate before. So, he proposed a different tact: a study commission focused on regulating development of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I think what people tend to forget now is how unusual it was to have anybody of McAteer’s stature interested in an environmental issue in the sixties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> This is Joseph Bodovitz. He was a regional planner, tapped to lead a study about what it would look like to regulate bay development. And he said it took the clout of a business-focused, pro-development leader like McAteer to force the legislature to take up the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I don’t know what would be a good example, like Ronald Reagan really being serious about protecting redwoods or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The study group ultimately created what became known as the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission, or BCDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These were uncharted waters. There was no precedent for regional environmental regulation back in 1965. In fact, BCDC was the first regulatory agency of its kind in the nation. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency wouldn’t be established for another 5 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A guy named Melvin B. Lane became BCDC’s first chairman. He approached regulating bay development using a handful of basic policy concepts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melvin Lane: \u003c/b>One of them was that, you don’t put something in the Bay that can just as well go on land. The next one was, you don’t put something next to the Bay that can just as well go inland. And that covered an awful lot of things. A house doesn’t have to be in the Bay, a yacht harbor does. [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Mel Lane was a Republican and a successful businessman. And he could speak with authority to developers and real estate interests. At the same time, he was an environmentalist and publisher of \u003ci>Sunset Magazine\u003c/i>, which had long celebrated the beauty of California and the West, and the importance of preserving natural lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Things that the general public can enjoy will get preference over things that just a limited group can enjoy. The things that a limited group of people can enjoy will get a preference over the something that only is for a single person, or a single owner. There are a lot of industries that need to be in the Bay, but if you fill it up with houses and warehouses, you don’t leave room for those things that really have to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Lane thought BCDC should take a different perspective from how a city council or developer might approach the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>If somebody owns a piece of shoreline and some mud flats, and they go to the city council and they say, “Now I just want to fill in a little bit out here to help my building, but I’m going to put a little path around here, and there’s a picnic table. And I’ve got this architect that’s going to put ivy on my building, and I’m going to create fifty jobs, and I’m going to pay you twenty thousand a year in taxes, and on and on. And, I’ve only taken .0007 percent of the bay.” A city council can’t turn that down. But if you looked at all of the privately-owned shallow parts of San Francisco Bay and said, “Now if this happens to even a large part of it, was that a good idea?” We’d say, “No.” If you looked at that one slice, you’d say, “Yes.” So as planners, we should be looking at the total, but a developer looks at only his thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Operating a commission that actually rejected permits for multi-million-dollar developments wasn’t easy. Almost immediately, BCDC found itself squaring off against all kinds of Bay Area business interests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>At the time BCDC was created there were some firms who were fighting it extremely hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Leslie Salt Company was the largest landowner on the San Francisco Bay, operating 26,000 acres of salt ponds at the southern tip of the Bay. In the mid-1960s, the company was looking to turn large portions of their property into commercial and residential real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel\u003c/b> \u003cb>Lane: \u003c/b>They had decided a couple of years before BCDC came into being, that they were going to start making money on their real estate, because they were never going to do it in the salt business. So, we did fight and scratch with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> BCDC rejected Leslie Salt’s proposal. The commission also battled other corporate giants, including two big ones: U.S. Steel, and Castle & Cooke, better known by its two subsidiaries, C&H Sugar and Dole. U.S. Steel wanted to build an office complex in the San Francisco harbor next to the Ferry Building that would have included a 550-foot skyscraper, more than twice the size of the Ferry Building’s clock tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Well, they wanted to put some big office buildings out in the Bay. And we did fight them on that, and everybody else took credit for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Castle & Cooke’s project was even more ambitious. They wanted to build a 42-acre plaza out into the Bay that would house a hotel and a bunch of restaurants and shops. The footprint of the plaza would have been 30% larger than Alcatraz Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BCDC rejected both proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Another proposal called for filling in the east side of the peninsula — all the way from San Bruno to the San Mateo Bridge — with dirt from San Bruno Mountain. It would have created 27 square miles of infill land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>They would cut down the mountain, push it in the Bay. Pushing land into the Bay — developers just love that. God, they think that is so wonderful. Anyway, we finally wore them down, but they were tough and very able.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> In 1969, the California Legislature made BCDC a permanent commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becoming an \u003ci>official\u003c/i> state agency marked two milestones in the evolution of Bay Area environmentalism. First, it gave environmental considerations a permanent place in state government. Second, the agency tried to strike a balance between economic development and environmental conservation. Here’s what Joe Bodovitz, the planner, said about that:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>People sort of had to confront the legitimate interests of both conservation and development. The idea, again, that Mel felt very strongly about is that reasonable, fair-minded people, confronted with facts in a reasonably unemotional way, are going to come out largely agreeing to the same kinds of things. They may disagree on a particular permit or a particular issue, but no fair-minded person can say marshlands aren’t important. Similarly, no fair-minded person can say ports aren’t important to the Bay Area economy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Mel Lane said BCDC’s greatest innovation was as a government mediator. It created and enforced rules across the Bay; and it occupied a middle ground between activists and developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Environmentalists should be extremists. They represent an extreme, and the people who are going to make a buck represent the other one, and the decision-maker should sweat it out in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The work of Kay Kerr, Esther Gulick, Sylvia McLaughlin and BCDC certainly saved San Francisco Bay from development. But it also became the model for other state regulatory agencies, like the California Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What began with the activism of three women in Berkeley, flourished into an environmental agency whose impact would be felt for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Sasha Khokha, host of KQED’s The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> It was originally produced by Todd Holmes and Roger Eardley-Pryor, with help from Sasha Khokha. It featured historic interviews from the Oral History Center archives at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interviews include Esther Gulick, Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Sylvia McLaughlin, Joseph Bodovitz and Melvin B. Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about the Bay’s history of environmental activism — including how pollution has affected communities of color in the Bay — \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">check out the free exhibit at UC Berkeley in The Bancroft Library Gallery\u003c/a>. It runs through November 2024. We’ve got all the details in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and myself, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Dan Brekke for his voice work in the show intro this week. As always, thanks to the KQED family for making this show possible, especially Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, César Saldaña, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"In the 1960s, cities around San Francisco Bay proposed plans to fill in the bay for development. Three Berkeley women saw all those proposals would shrink the Bay to a river. They stepped in and changed the future of development in the San Francisco Bay Area.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1718812870,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":81,"wordCount":3047},"headData":{"title":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay | KQED","description":"In the 1960s, cities around San Francisco Bay proposed plans to fill in the bay for development. Three Berkeley women saw all those proposals would shrink the Bay to a river. They stepped in and changed the future of development in the San Francisco Bay Area.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Transcript: How Environmental Activism Saved the Bay","datePublished":"2024-06-20T03:00:19-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-19T09:01:10-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://dcs.megaphone.fm/KQINC4789395252.mp3?key=271afc8f38cef1ec098809dc5f50c4b1&request_event_id=21fd3adf-7ced-489c-9bac-0847088072f6","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11991017/transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I want to take you back to April 1961. It’s a Sunday, and copies of the \u003cem>Oakland Tribune\u003c/em> newspaper are hitting doorsteps all over the East Bay. A big article inside was getting a lot of attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The San Francisco Bay — Big, briny and beautiful. The “meal ticket” that brought 4 million people here has been shrinking rapidly due to man. How much more will the next two decades diminish the waterway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Those were the opening lines of the article written by reporter Ed Salzman. He’d recently seen a map from the Army Corps of Engineers that showed all the projects being considered by local governments that would fill in the Bay — creating land where there was once water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>To lovers of the Bay, the prospect is anything but pretty. By 2020, the Bay could be little more than a wide river.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The story was picked up by other newspapers, and soon sparked an environmental revolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Today on Bay Curious, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13911567/the-1960s-women-whose-environmental-activism-saved-the-bay\">we’re spotlighting three women who saw the future laid out in those newspaper articles and decided to do something about it\u003c/a>. Their efforts to \u003ci>Save the Bay\u003c/i> had a ripple effect that changed our landscape, \u003ci>and state politics\u003c/i>, forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It features recordings from the UC Berkeley Oral history center — which are awesome because it means we get to hear \u003ci>firsthand\u003c/i> from historic change makers. But technology has come a long way since these were recorded, so you may need to listen a little closer than usual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stick around at the end of the episode for more \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">details about the Voices for the Environment exhibition.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>In the early 1960s, California was already the most populated state in the nation, and the Bay Area was becoming a crowded place. Developers needed land, and they were looking to fill in the Bay to create more of it. But as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/californiareportmagazine\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>’s Sasha Khokha tells us, some local residents were \u003ci>not \u003c/i>keen on this plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The Army Corps map published in the newspaper sent shockwaves around the region. And it alarmed three Berkeley residents: Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Esther Gulick and Sylvia McLaughlin. They recalled that moment when they were interviewed together for an oral history project in 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>When the Army Corps map appeared in the \u003ci>Oakland\u003c/i> \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i> showing that the Bay would end up being a river by 2020 because of all the fill, it was clear to me that this was certainly a possible train of events, and it needed to be stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>And I was totally appalled, reading in the [\u003ci>Berkeley\u003c/i>] \u003ci>Gazette\u003c/i>, of the city manager’s dream to fill over 2,000 acres in front of Berkeley. And this was one of the things that galvanized us into action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>About two weeks later, Esther came over. We were sitting in the living room, and it was a beautiful day, and the Bay was very blue. I said to Esther, “I don’t know what’s going to happen to the bay. Did you see the map in the \u003ci>Tribune\u003c/i>?” She said, “Yes. Wasn’t it awful?” I said, “Well, do you think you would have time to do something about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The three Berkeley women started having regular meetings in the spring of 1961. They fit squarely within a well-established Bay Area tradition of environmental activists. They were white. They were highly educated and they were well-connected in local and state political circles. You might recognize Catherine Kerr, as the wife of former UC President Clark Kerr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They read city council plans, consulted with academics on the Berkeley campus, and then called a meeting of the leading environmental organizations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>The three of us had decided that we were not conservationists and this was a really terrible problem. We were going to tell them about the problem, and then we expected they would carry the ball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>We weren’t going to form an organization at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>We didn’t have any of the expertise. We explained about the Army Corps map. there were maybe eighty square miles of fill already proposed by various cities around the Bay. And so we said, “This is the problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One by one the environmental leaders in the room agreed that saving the Bay was important. But they also said it was not something their groups could take on. Kay Kerr remembered Dave Brower from the Sierra Club saying:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>“Well, it’s just exceedingly important, but the Sierra Club is interested in wilderness and in trails.” Then the next guy, Newton Drury, said, “Well, this is very important, but we’re saving the redwoods, and we can’t save the Bay.” And then it went around the room to the point where there was dead silence. So we said, “Well, the Bay is going to go down the drain.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But Kerr said there was one way the Sierra Club offered to help:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>Dave Brower said, “Now there’s only one thing to do: start a new organization, and we’ll give you all our mailing lists.” And they all wished us a great deal of luck when they went out the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: T\u003c/b>hey said, “Someone should really do something about this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>It turned out that we were the somebodies.\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>And that’s how these three Berkeley women found themselves starting the Save San Francisco Bay Association. And those other environmental groups they did follow through in one important way. They shared their mailing lists. Out of the first 700 mailers the three women sent out, they got about 600 pledges of support. Within a month, Save San Francisco Bay had secured a solid membership base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Esther Gulick: \u003c/b>They just couldn’t believe it, you know. They, like us, thought the Bay belonged to us, the Bay belonged to everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> One of the group’s first tasks was to push back against Berkeley’s plan to double the size of the city by filling in more than 2,000 acres of shoreline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The activists showed up in droves to Berkeley City Council meetings to object to the plan. And they flooded the mailboxes of elected officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Catherine Kerr: \u003c/b>I would say that was one of our very first lessons, that if you were going to save the Bay, you had to have the support, and you had to educate the politicians. And the second thing was that you couldn’t educate them or get their support without facts. So we spent a great deal of time on collecting facts and then educating everybody that would listen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sylvia McLaughlin: \u003c/b>Our members were very responsive. We would suggest that they attend critical city council meetings and they would. Sometimes the following city council meeting would be wall to wall with chamber of commerce people. It went back and forth like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>In the end, members of the Save San Francisco Bay Association won. In 1963, the Berkeley city council rescinded its plan to fill in the Bay. It was a big victory for environmentalists and it would change Berkeley and the larger Bay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>But there was a problem. The victory in Berkeley only went so far. Other cities around the bay had dozens of other fill plans in the works. The three Berkeley activists knew something had to be done in \u003ci>Sacramento\u003c/i> if they were really going to save the \u003ci>whole\u003c/i> bay. Kay Kerr used her political connections to get a meeting with state Senator Eugene McAteer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McAteer was born in San Francisco and was a powerhouse in Bay Area politics. He was a builder, and he had a track record of supporting development and infrastructure projects, like freeways, universities and dams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But he could tell that the issue of whether or not to fill in the Bay was a significant one. He’d seen the legislature stall over this debate before. So, he proposed a different tact: a study commission focused on regulating development of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I think what people tend to forget now is how unusual it was to have anybody of McAteer’s stature interested in an environmental issue in the sixties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> This is Joseph Bodovitz. He was a regional planner, tapped to lead a study about what it would look like to regulate bay development. And he said it took the clout of a business-focused, pro-development leader like McAteer to force the legislature to take up the issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>I don’t know what would be a good example, like Ronald Reagan really being serious about protecting redwoods or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The study group ultimately created what became known as the San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission, or BCDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These were uncharted waters. There was no precedent for regional environmental regulation back in 1965. In fact, BCDC was the first regulatory agency of its kind in the nation. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency wouldn’t be established for another 5 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A guy named Melvin B. Lane became BCDC’s first chairman. He approached regulating bay development using a handful of basic policy concepts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Melvin Lane: \u003c/b>One of them was that, you don’t put something in the Bay that can just as well go on land. The next one was, you don’t put something next to the Bay that can just as well go inland. And that covered an awful lot of things. A house doesn’t have to be in the Bay, a yacht harbor does. [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Mel Lane was a Republican and a successful businessman. And he could speak with authority to developers and real estate interests. At the same time, he was an environmentalist and publisher of \u003ci>Sunset Magazine\u003c/i>, which had long celebrated the beauty of California and the West, and the importance of preserving natural lands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Things that the general public can enjoy will get preference over things that just a limited group can enjoy. The things that a limited group of people can enjoy will get a preference over the something that only is for a single person, or a single owner. There are a lot of industries that need to be in the Bay, but if you fill it up with houses and warehouses, you don’t leave room for those things that really have to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Lane thought BCDC should take a different perspective from how a city council or developer might approach the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>If somebody owns a piece of shoreline and some mud flats, and they go to the city council and they say, “Now I just want to fill in a little bit out here to help my building, but I’m going to put a little path around here, and there’s a picnic table. And I’ve got this architect that’s going to put ivy on my building, and I’m going to create fifty jobs, and I’m going to pay you twenty thousand a year in taxes, and on and on. And, I’ve only taken .0007 percent of the bay.” A city council can’t turn that down. But if you looked at all of the privately-owned shallow parts of San Francisco Bay and said, “Now if this happens to even a large part of it, was that a good idea?” We’d say, “No.” If you looked at that one slice, you’d say, “Yes.” So as planners, we should be looking at the total, but a developer looks at only his thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Operating a commission that actually rejected permits for multi-million-dollar developments wasn’t easy. Almost immediately, BCDC found itself squaring off against all kinds of Bay Area business interests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>At the time BCDC was created there were some firms who were fighting it extremely hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Leslie Salt Company was the largest landowner on the San Francisco Bay, operating 26,000 acres of salt ponds at the southern tip of the Bay. In the mid-1960s, the company was looking to turn large portions of their property into commercial and residential real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel\u003c/b> \u003cb>Lane: \u003c/b>They had decided a couple of years before BCDC came into being, that they were going to start making money on their real estate, because they were never going to do it in the salt business. So, we did fight and scratch with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> BCDC rejected Leslie Salt’s proposal. The commission also battled other corporate giants, including two big ones: U.S. Steel, and Castle & Cooke, better known by its two subsidiaries, C&H Sugar and Dole. U.S. Steel wanted to build an office complex in the San Francisco harbor next to the Ferry Building that would have included a 550-foot skyscraper, more than twice the size of the Ferry Building’s clock tower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Well, they wanted to put some big office buildings out in the Bay. And we did fight them on that, and everybody else took credit for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> Castle & Cooke’s project was even more ambitious. They wanted to build a 42-acre plaza out into the Bay that would house a hotel and a bunch of restaurants and shops. The footprint of the plaza would have been 30% larger than Alcatraz Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BCDC rejected both proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Another proposal called for filling in the east side of the peninsula — all the way from San Bruno to the San Mateo Bridge — with dirt from San Bruno Mountain. It would have created 27 square miles of infill land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>They would cut down the mountain, push it in the Bay. Pushing land into the Bay — developers just love that. God, they think that is so wonderful. Anyway, we finally wore them down, but they were tough and very able.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha:\u003c/b> In 1969, the California Legislature made BCDC a permanent commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Becoming an \u003ci>official\u003c/i> state agency marked two milestones in the evolution of Bay Area environmentalism. First, it gave environmental considerations a permanent place in state government. Second, the agency tried to strike a balance between economic development and environmental conservation. Here’s what Joe Bodovitz, the planner, said about that:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joseph Bodovitz: \u003c/b>People sort of had to confront the legitimate interests of both conservation and development. The idea, again, that Mel felt very strongly about is that reasonable, fair-minded people, confronted with facts in a reasonably unemotional way, are going to come out largely agreeing to the same kinds of things. They may disagree on a particular permit or a particular issue, but no fair-minded person can say marshlands aren’t important. Similarly, no fair-minded person can say ports aren’t important to the Bay Area economy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>Mel Lane said BCDC’s greatest innovation was as a government mediator. It created and enforced rules across the Bay; and it occupied a middle ground between activists and developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mel Lane: \u003c/b>Environmentalists should be extremists. They represent an extreme, and the people who are going to make a buck represent the other one, and the decision-maker should sweat it out in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sasha Khokha: \u003c/b>The work of Kay Kerr, Esther Gulick, Sylvia McLaughlin and BCDC certainly saved San Francisco Bay from development. But it also became the model for other state regulatory agencies, like the California Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What began with the activism of three women in Berkeley, flourished into an environmental agency whose impact would be felt for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music ends\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was Sasha Khokha, host of KQED’s The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode was adapted from a podcast called \u003ca href=\"https://soundcloud.com/berkeleyohc/sets/voices-for-the-environment\">\u003ci>Voices for the Environment: A Century of Bay Area Activism.\u003c/i>\u003c/a> It was originally produced by Todd Holmes and Roger Eardley-Pryor, with help from Sasha Khokha. It featured historic interviews from the Oral History Center archives at the Bancroft Library at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interviews include Esther Gulick, Catherine “Kay” Kerr, Sylvia McLaughlin, Joseph Bodovitz and Melvin B. Lane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about the Bay’s history of environmental activism — including how pollution has affected communities of color in the Bay — \u003ca href=\"https://events.berkeley.edu/Library/event/210947-exhibit-voices-for-the-environment-a-century-of\">check out the free exhibit at UC Berkeley in The Bancroft Library Gallery\u003c/a>. It runs through November 2024. We’ve got all the details in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and myself, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Dan Brekke for his voice work in the show intro this week. As always, thanks to the KQED family for making this show possible, especially Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, César Saldaña, Maha Sanad and Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11991017/transcript-how-environmental-activism-that-saved-the-bay","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_19906"],"tags":["news_21077","news_20023","news_34205"],"featImg":"news_11991021","label":"source_news_11991017"},"news_11624317":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11624317","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11624317","score":null,"sort":[1718662258000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"wildfires-youve-got-questions-weve-got-answers","title":"What Does It Mean to 'Contain' a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions","publishDate":1718662258,"format":"standard","headTitle":"What Does It Mean to ‘Contain’ a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>When a deadly wildfire breaks out in California, causing people to lose their homes, security or even their lives, it can be a truly distressing and confusing time for those of us who live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> team asked KQED audiences their most pressing questions about wildfires. Read on for the full answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘What does it mean when a fire is \u003cem>contained\u003c/em> or \u003cem>controlled\u003c/em>?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Once a fire starts, the goal is suppression, and the first step is containment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire updates often include a “% contained” figure, and it can take days for fire crews to get even 10% containment on certain fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does containment mean, and why is it so hard to achieve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Containment means that there’s some type of barrier between the area that has been burned, which we call ‘the black’ and an area that has not been burned, which we refer to as ‘the green,'” Cal Fire public information officer Jaime Williams says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “% contained” indicates how much of the fire’s perimeter is surrounded by a barrier. So, for a fire whose perimeter is 10 miles around, if firefighters create a 5-mile-long dirt area around the fire, the fire is 50% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two types of barriers: natural and artificial. A stream or lake can act as a natural barrier, and an artificial barrier is often a dirt path dug around the fire. Firefighters will use a bulldozer to create what is called a “dozer line” or manually carve out a path using picks and shovels, which is called a “hand line.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They basically scrape the top layer of the grass off to leave bare mineral soil,” Williams says. “That way, the fire stops because there’s nothing to burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or firefighters will employ a “hose lay,” where they’ll carry a synthetic hose around the fire, periodically spraying the area inside “the black.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean fires can’t spread beyond a containment line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_1916742\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2404px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1916742\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2404\" height=\"1412\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Firefighters use picks to create a barrier between unburned vegetation and the fire in a technique called a ‘hand line.’ \u003cem>(Deleware.gov)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Winds can carry embers beyond containment lines, which spark new fires nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then a fire can go from 50% contained to 20% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even after a fire is contained, there’s still a lot of work to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A contained fire can still be flaming inside the perimeter and firefighters must burn out untouched vegetation inside the barrier and cool down hot spots that could flare up. After the hot spots and unburned vegetation are treated and the barrier is expected to hold, a fire is considered “controlled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EzcA3KvEsY\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How do wildfires get their names?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The first fire crew on the scene typically names the fire. Usually, they’re inspired by a nearby landmark like a road, mountain, lake or town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1867\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Tubbs Fire, which \u003c/a>destroyed parts of Santa Rosa in 2017, started near Tubbs Lane, just north of Calistoga. The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1866\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Atlas Fire\u003c/a> in Napa was named for Atlas Peak, a nearby mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the naming process isn’t always that simple — especially with the sheer number of fires in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2015, \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/2015/08/26/434821450/how-do-wildfires-get-their-names-the-national-park-service-explains\">firefighters in Idaho faced their 57th fire of the season\u003c/a> and couldn’t come up with a creative name for the fire. So, they named it \u003ca href=\"https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4523\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Not Creative Fire\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire names also often include the word “complex,” like the CZU Lightning Complex fires that burned in San Mateo and Santa Cruz counties in 2020. That means there are two or more individual fires located in the same general area, and it has been assigned to a unified command.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How can I prepare for a wildfire?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Wildfires may now feel grimly inevitable in Northern California. But there is still a great deal you can do personally to prepare yourself, your family and your home for wildfire and its wide-reaching effects. Find our most-read guides to wildfire preparedness below:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">How to Prepare Your Home For Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if your home isn’t in the direct path of flames, wildfire can still reach you through flying embers. Find out how to do a self-assessment of the trees, brush and other vegetation on and around your property, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">learn the steps to protect your home\u003c/a> from wildfire by creating defensible space and “hardening” your home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">What to Pack in Your Emergency Bag to Prepare For a Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire moves incredibly fast, and if you live in an at-risk zone, you and your family may have to leave your home immediately. Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">our guide to what should be in your emergency bag\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11619961\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11619961 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs.\" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1180x782.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-520x345.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September 2017. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs. \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Fire Evacuation: What Actually Happens? And How Can You Plan?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having to evacuate your home due to the threat of wildfire is a scary prospect — especially if you’ve never had to do it before. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Read our guide to safely and swiftly leaving your home\u003c/a>, from when you should leave to what you should bring (and what you should wear).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">During a Wildfire, Your Phone Might Stop Working. How Can You Communicate?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a disaster situation, communication between you and those you care about is key. But what if the one device you rely on to communicate — your phone — isn’t working because of downed cell towers? Read these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">steps you can take to maintain contact with others\u003c/a> and keep loved ones up-to-date on your safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>An earlier version of this story was originally published in Oct. 2017.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"What does containment mean? How are wildfires named? And how can you prepare your home and your family for wildfire?","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1718824606,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":35,"wordCount":1018},"headData":{"title":"What Does It Mean to 'Contain' a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions | KQED","description":"What does containment mean? How are wildfires named? And how can you prepare your home and your family for wildfire?","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"What Does It Mean to 'Contain' a Wildfire? And More Answers to Your Questions","datePublished":"2024-06-17T15:10:58-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-19T12:16:46-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"sticky":false,"audioTrackLength":819,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11624317/wildfires-youve-got-questions-weve-got-answers","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>When a deadly wildfire breaks out in California, causing people to lose their homes, security or even their lives, it can be a truly distressing and confusing time for those of us who live here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> team asked KQED audiences their most pressing questions about wildfires. Read on for the full answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘What does it mean when a fire is \u003cem>contained\u003c/em> or \u003cem>controlled\u003c/em>?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Once a fire starts, the goal is suppression, and the first step is containment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire updates often include a “% contained” figure, and it can take days for fire crews to get even 10% containment on certain fires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what does containment mean, and why is it so hard to achieve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Containment means that there’s some type of barrier between the area that has been burned, which we call ‘the black’ and an area that has not been burned, which we refer to as ‘the green,'” Cal Fire public information officer Jaime Williams says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “% contained” indicates how much of the fire’s perimeter is surrounded by a barrier. So, for a fire whose perimeter is 10 miles around, if firefighters create a 5-mile-long dirt area around the fire, the fire is 50% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are two types of barriers: natural and artificial. A stream or lake can act as a natural barrier, and an artificial barrier is often a dirt path dug around the fire. Firefighters will use a bulldozer to create what is called a “dozer line” or manually carve out a path using picks and shovels, which is called a “hand line.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They basically scrape the top layer of the grass off to leave bare mineral soil,” Williams says. “That way, the fire stops because there’s nothing to burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Or firefighters will employ a “hose lay,” where they’ll carry a synthetic hose around the fire, periodically spraying the area inside “the black.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t mean fires can’t spread beyond a containment line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_1916742\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2404px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-1916742\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/science/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2017/10/Fork-Complex_Aug-5-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2404\" height=\"1412\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Firefighters use picks to create a barrier between unburned vegetation and the fire in a technique called a ‘hand line.’ \u003cem>(Deleware.gov)\u003c/em>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Winds can carry embers beyond containment lines, which spark new fires nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then a fire can go from 50% contained to 20% contained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even after a fire is contained, there’s still a lot of work to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A contained fire can still be flaming inside the perimeter and firefighters must burn out untouched vegetation inside the barrier and cool down hot spots that could flare up. After the hot spots and unburned vegetation are treated and the barrier is expected to hold, a fire is considered “controlled.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9EzcA3KvEsY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9EzcA3KvEsY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch2>‘How do wildfires get their names?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The first fire crew on the scene typically names the fire. Usually, they’re inspired by a nearby landmark like a road, mountain, lake or town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1867\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Tubbs Fire, which \u003c/a>destroyed parts of Santa Rosa in 2017, started near Tubbs Lane, just north of Calistoga. The \u003ca href=\"http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents/incidentdetails/Index/1866\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Atlas Fire\u003c/a> in Napa was named for Atlas Peak, a nearby mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the naming process isn’t always that simple — especially with the sheer number of fires in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in 2015, \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/2015/08/26/434821450/how-do-wildfires-get-their-names-the-national-park-service-explains\">firefighters in Idaho faced their 57th fire of the season\u003c/a> and couldn’t come up with a creative name for the fire. So, they named it \u003ca href=\"https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4523\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Not Creative Fire\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire names also often include the word “complex,” like the CZU Lightning Complex fires that burned in San Mateo and Santa Cruz counties in 2020. That means there are two or more individual fires located in the same general area, and it has been assigned to a unified command.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘How can I prepare for a wildfire?’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Wildfires may now feel grimly inevitable in Northern California. But there is still a great deal you can do personally to prepare yourself, your family and your home for wildfire and its wide-reaching effects. Find our most-read guides to wildfire preparedness below:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">How to Prepare Your Home For Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if your home isn’t in the direct path of flames, wildfire can still reach you through flying embers. Find out how to do a self-assessment of the trees, brush and other vegetation on and around your property, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1965575/and-now-fire-season-heres-how-to-prepare\">learn the steps to protect your home\u003c/a> from wildfire by creating defensible space and “hardening” your home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">What to Pack in Your Emergency Bag to Prepare For a Wildfire\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fire moves incredibly fast, and if you live in an at-risk zone, you and your family may have to leave your home immediately. Read \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11833686/what-to-pack-in-your-emergency-bag-with-covid-19-in-mind\">our guide to what should be in your emergency bag\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11619961\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11619961 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg\" alt=\"Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs.\" width=\"800\" height=\"530\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1020x676.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-1180x782.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/09/RS27070_Inmate-Firefighters-1-qut-520x345.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inmate firefighters clear brush from a roadside in the Berkeley Hills in September 2017. Fire officials say fuel reduction projects like this are critical to preventing major wildfires, but funding for fuel reduction on federal land has been squeezed to pay for increasing firefighting costs. \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Fire Evacuation: What Actually Happens? And How Can You Plan?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Having to evacuate your home due to the threat of wildfire is a scary prospect — especially if you’ve never had to do it before. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11834901/fire-evacuation-what-actually-happens-and-how-can-you-plan\">Read our guide to safely and swiftly leaving your home\u003c/a>, from when you should leave to what you should bring (and what you should wear).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">During a Wildfire, Your Phone Might Stop Working. How Can You Communicate?\u003c/a>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a disaster situation, communication between you and those you care about is key. But what if the one device you rely on to communicate — your phone — isn’t working because of downed cell towers? Read these \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11840047/during-a-disaster-your-phone-might-stop-working-how-can-you-communicate\">steps you can take to maintain contact with others\u003c/a> and keep loved ones up-to-date on your safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>An earlier version of this story was originally published in Oct. 2017.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11624317/wildfires-youve-got-questions-weve-got-answers","authors":["102","5432","8606","11260","3243"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_19906","news_8","news_33520","news_356"],"tags":["news_18426","news_21773","news_4463"],"featImg":"news_11990788","label":"news_33523"},"news_11989925":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11989925","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11989925","score":null,"sort":[1718272826000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"which-came-first-the-name-brotherhood-way-or-the-churches-on-it","title":"Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It?","publishDate":1718272826,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ethel Davies answers her door, looking downright spunky in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She’s 102 years old and has lived in San Francisco all her life. She’s heading out for dinner with friends soon but invites me in for a chat about her older brother, George Christopher, who was a former mayor of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I found my way to Davies in search of answers to a question asked by Noor Moughamian, an 11-year-old student at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kzv.org/\">KZV Armenian School\u003c/a> on Brotherhood Way. The street, on the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced and Stonestown Galleria, is a wide boulevard with many houses of worship side by side, including Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian and Presbyterian. There are also several schools and community centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noor thinks it’s unusual to see so many churches and schools clumped together. She wants to know which came first, the name Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Going back to Greektown\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Noor’s question about how Brotherhood Way got its name, it’s helpful to learn a little more about Davies’ family history and her older brother, George Christopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market Street. There were so many Greek businesses and residences in that area that it was often called Greektown back then. It had traditional coffeehouses, restaurants, a Greek language school and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s where I was christened when I was an infant,” said Davies. “So that’s been a continuation for me for 102 years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989939\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989939\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg\" alt=\"Older woman in a navy blue pants suit poses by a fireplace.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2089\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-800x870.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1020x1110.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-160x174.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1412x1536.jpg 1412w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1882x2048.jpg 1882w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At 102, Ethel Davies is still going strong. The younger sister of former San Francisco mayor George Christopher, here she poses before heading out to a dinner date with friends. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Davies was born in the U.S., her eldest brother, George, was born back in Greece. Originally called George Christopheles, he later changed the name to George Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us,” said Davies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class. In the 1930s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. During the Depression, men employed by the government as part of the New Deal built a road along it called \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Brotherhood_Way\">Stanley Drive\u003c/a>. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to his church — the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — whose congregation was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>An evolving sense of community\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided, and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Freemasons bought one of the original parcels and built a lodge on the street. However, as membership has waned over the years, the group now rents its space to a Christian church and two bridge clubs. Several community centers have also opened along Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg\" alt=\"30 foot cylindrical statue sits on a patch of dirt with housing behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2466\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-800x1028.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1020x1310.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1196x1536.jpg 1196w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1595x2048.jpg 1595w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Beniamino_Bufano_on_Public_Art\">Italian sculptor Benny Bufano created this peace statue\u003c/a>. It originally sat at SFO but now resides on Brotherhood Way. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions to the street is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other,” said Pastor Rob Hall of the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hall said that in his experience, people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to — a lot of his parishioners now come from the peninsula — but they’re still a vibrant faith community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational,” he said. Beyond the growing number of churches, schools and community organizations on Brotherhood Way, there have been other changes to George Christopher’s original vision as well. A few years ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/development-alters-s-f-s-road-of-churches-5243030.php\">a controversial new housing development went \u003c/a>up. Like other parts of San Francisco, this boulevard is bound to evolve with the ever-changing needs of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On the western edge of San Francisco, just south of San Francisco State and Parkmerced, you’ll find a street with the curious name … Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The wide boulevard has a grassy median with mature trees, but what really makes Brotherhood Way stand out is its residents. Large buildings featuring the Star of David, an Eastern Orthodox cross and a crucifix — all in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>[speaking in Armenian] It means my name is Noor; what’s your name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Noor Moughamian is a 5th grader at the KZV Armenian School, also on Brotherhood Way. They learn in both Armenian and English at her school, and just up the road is a Jewish school and a Catholic school, as well as several houses of worship from different faiths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I feel like it’s like kind of family, like, community, I feel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The schools plan activities together sometimes, and Noor says there’s a feeling of … brotherhood … just like the name. Across the street from the Armenian school, there’s even a little statue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003ci>[Reading]\u003c/i> Dedicated to the brotherhood of man and the ideal and the ideal of peace among all the peoples of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003ci>Brotherhood\u003c/i> seems to be everywhere, and Noor wants to know if that was always the plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I was just wondering if like, were the churches built onto the name of the street? Or was it? Or did they come up with the name and then decide to build churches and schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>How did this quiet corner of San Francisco come to be home to so many religious communities? And which came first — Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it? Today’s question was selected by you, our podcast listeners in our monthly public voting round. It comes from Noor, who is 11 years old, but to answer it, we get to chat with one source who is 102! That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan set out to Brotherhood Way to check out the houses of worship and find the answer to Noor’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, blue light shines from the stained glass windows and glitters on the gold-painted walls. The parishioners, in suits and dresses, are lining up to receive communion wine from a long, slim spoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all feels suffused with a solemn glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>More chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>This church has been around for over a century. And so has one of its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I’m Ethel Davies, and I’m 102.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies lives nearby. She answers the door in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She doesn’t plan on slowing down anytime soon, so I had to ask: what’s the secret?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>So many people, even my doctor ask me that one. I was a walker. I walked every street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies says her family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And were there a lot of Greek Orthodox people in San Francisco at that time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies:\u003c/b> There were, there were. Yes. South of Market had Irish and Greek people. It was their neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Greektown, as it was called, had traditional coffeehouses and restaurants and a Greek language school. And that was where the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church church used to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>In fact, it was on 7th Street in San Francisco at one time. And today, that is a Ukrainian Orthodox church. And that’s where I was christened when I was an infant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies isn’t just a super impressive centenarian. She had a front-row seat to the development of Brotherhood Way because her brother, George Christopher, was the mayor largely responsible for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I had a total of two brothers and two sisters, and I was the youngest in the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And where was George in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Number one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>He was born back in Greece as George Christopheles but later changed the name to Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>My brother? He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us. Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>George Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class, like many of his fellow Greek immigrants. In the 30s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. Then, men employed by the New Deal built a road along it called Stanley Drive. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>I assume that he had a relationship with the pastor of the Greek church especially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Father Anthony. Yes, yes. He was a wonderful man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So after George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — \u003ci>his church\u003c/i> — which was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>It really makes friends of the various religions, which they’re all the same. We all believe in one thing, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>And I think that Brotherhood Way is a wonderful name anyway, don’t you? Brotherhood Way, yeah. I remember when Father Anthony and my brother celebrated when they came across that name. They were so happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the places of worship did come first, and the name followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, Davies is stepping out for the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Oh, I’m going to the yacht club with friends for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As Davies heads off to her busy social life, I head back to Brotherhood Way to meet another elder, Judge Quentin Kopp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp:\u003c/b> I’m a retired San Mateo County Superior Court judge. And before that, I was a California state senator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Kopp was also on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, and he knew George Christopher through politics. He meets me in front of the Jewish synagogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>The building has been here since about 1963.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s tall and angular, with peaked red and blue stained glass windows. Kopp and his family have been coming here for six decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>In 1964, the first of three children was born. A boy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Of the original five buildings constructed on Brotherhood Way, four of them were houses of worship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/b> It seemed like religious institution, religious institution, religious institution and then the masonic temple, which, in my understanding, is not specifically religious. How does that fit in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was popular. There was more than one lodge in San Francisco.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Masonry \u003ci>is\u003c/i> certainly a brotherhood — no women are allowed. It’s a worldwide secretive society that, while not religious, promotes fellowship and community service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was strong. And, I think that is the origin of giving that property to the Masons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Masonic lodge now rents space to two bridge clubs and a Christian church. Several community centers have opened on the street and an Armenian church,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Babbling sounds of people talking and kids playing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church, where the Sunday service has just gotten out. Kids are running around out front, dodging between tables of coffee and pastries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We’re like the new kid on the block. So we’re getting to know our neighbors more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pastor Rob Hall invites me inside the church, which is shaped like a giant triangle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We know the Armenian Church. We know the the Jewish synagogue. And then we’re also getting to know all the RVs down on Lake Merced. And we, we, we do kind of an outreach where we bring coffee.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says it’s all about being neighborly and that he likes being near the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall:\u003c/b> We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other because, you know, San Francisco is not an easy place to be a person of faith, no matter what your faith background is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to. A lot of his parishioners come from the peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational. So we have a lot of young families with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>I called Noor, our question-asker, to see what she thinks about what I found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> I mean, I guess I kind of thought that the street came after everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>Yeah. I remember you saying at the beginning. So you were right. You were right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So, she wasn’t very surprised that the churches came first and then the name Brotherhood Way. But she liked learning about the Christopher family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>When the brother stepped in when the father died, I thought that was pretty cool.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And she said the story made her think about her school a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>It kind of shows that like all the other churches and like school, I guess it kind of shows that everyone on Brotherhood Way is more like a community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was brought to us by KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The June voting round is up at BayCurious.org. If you haven’t cast your vote yet, mosey on over to check out the options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1: \u003c/b>I want to know more about earthquake cottages in SF. Are there any still around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>What you tell me about Brooks Island, the little sister to Angel Island in the San Francisco Bay? Are hikers allowed? Is there any way to get out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>What is the San Francisco Columbarium? I read that once, maybe while it was being restored, people’s remains were stored in the basement of the Coliseum theater on Clement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Produced by me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Xorje Olivares…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: … \u003c/b>Tamuna Chkareuli, Bianca Taylor, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And the whole KQED family. If you’ve been enjoying Bay Curious, please leave us a rating or a review. They help other people find our show, and honestly, they make our reporters feel super good about the work they’re doing. Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"San Francisco's Brotherhood Way may seem like an odd name for a street. But it's lined with churches and schools and was always intended to be a community gathering space.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1718302943,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":117,"wordCount":3065},"headData":{"title":"Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It? | KQED","description":"San Francisco's Brotherhood Way may seem like an odd name for a street. But it's lined with churches and schools and was always intended to be a community gathering space.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Which Came First, The Name Brotherhood Way Or The Churches On It?","datePublished":"2024-06-13T03:00:26-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-13T11:22:23-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://dcs.megaphone.fm/KQINC4480709648.mp3?key=1fddf7322c6db80da6c7083b65ee8fd0&request_event_id=a0c7a2b5-4d1f-41f2-a317-fca95e6e8523","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11989925","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11989925/which-came-first-the-name-brotherhood-way-or-the-churches-on-it","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ethel Davies answers her door, looking downright spunky in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She’s 102 years old and has lived in San Francisco all her life. She’s heading out for dinner with friends soon but invites me in for a chat about her older brother, George Christopher, who was a former mayor of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I found my way to Davies in search of answers to a question asked by Noor Moughamian, an 11-year-old student at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kzv.org/\">KZV Armenian School\u003c/a> on Brotherhood Way. The street, on the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced and Stonestown Galleria, is a wide boulevard with many houses of worship side by side, including Jewish, Greek Orthodox, Catholic, Armenian and Presbyterian. There are also several schools and community centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Noor thinks it’s unusual to see so many churches and schools clumped together. She wants to know which came first, the name Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Going back to Greektown\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Noor’s question about how Brotherhood Way got its name, it’s helpful to learn a little more about Davies’ family history and her older brother, George Christopher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market Street. There were so many Greek businesses and residences in that area that it was often called Greektown back then. It had traditional coffeehouses, restaurants, a Greek language school and the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s where I was christened when I was an infant,” said Davies. “So that’s been a continuation for me for 102 years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989939\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989939\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg\" alt=\"Older woman in a navy blue pants suit poses by a fireplace.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2089\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-800x870.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1020x1110.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-160x174.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1412x1536.jpg 1412w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/EthelDavies-1882x2048.jpg 1882w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At 102, Ethel Davies is still going strong. The younger sister of former San Francisco mayor George Christopher, here she poses before heading out to a dinner date with friends. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While Davies was born in the U.S., her eldest brother, George, was born back in Greece. Originally called George Christopheles, he later changed the name to George Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us,” said Davies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class. In the 1930s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco, near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. During the Depression, men employed by the government as part of the New Deal built a road along it called \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Brotherhood_Way\">Stanley Drive\u003c/a>. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to his church — the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — whose congregation was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>An evolving sense of community\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided, and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Freemasons bought one of the original parcels and built a lodge on the street. However, as membership has waned over the years, the group now rents its space to a Christian church and two bridge clubs. Several community centers have also opened along Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989951\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11989951\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg\" alt=\"30 foot cylindrical statue sits on a patch of dirt with housing behind.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"2466\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-800x1028.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1020x1310.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1196x1536.jpg 1196w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/Peace-statue-1595x2048.jpg 1595w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=Beniamino_Bufano_on_Public_Art\">Italian sculptor Benny Bufano created this peace statue\u003c/a>. It originally sat at SFO but now resides on Brotherhood Way. \u003ccite>(Katherine Monahan/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions to the street is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other,” said Pastor Rob Hall of the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hall said that in his experience, people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to — a lot of his parishioners now come from the peninsula — but they’re still a vibrant faith community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational,” he said. Beyond the growing number of churches, schools and community organizations on Brotherhood Way, there have been other changes to George Christopher’s original vision as well. A few years ago, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/development-alters-s-f-s-road-of-churches-5243030.php\">a controversial new housing development went \u003c/a>up. Like other parts of San Francisco, this boulevard is bound to evolve with the ever-changing needs of the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>On the western edge of San Francisco, just south of San Francisco State and Parkmerced, you’ll find a street with the curious name … Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The wide boulevard has a grassy median with mature trees, but what really makes Brotherhood Way stand out is its residents. Large buildings featuring the Star of David, an Eastern Orthodox cross and a crucifix — all in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>[speaking in Armenian] It means my name is Noor; what’s your name?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Noor Moughamian is a 5th grader at the KZV Armenian School, also on Brotherhood Way. They learn in both Armenian and English at her school, and just up the road is a Jewish school and a Catholic school, as well as several houses of worship from different faiths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I feel like it’s like kind of family, like, community, I feel like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>The schools plan activities together sometimes, and Noor says there’s a feeling of … brotherhood … just like the name. Across the street from the Armenian school, there’s even a little statue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>\u003ci>[Reading]\u003c/i> Dedicated to the brotherhood of man and the ideal and the ideal of peace among all the peoples of the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003ci>Brotherhood\u003c/i> seems to be everywhere, and Noor wants to know if that was always the plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian\u003c/b>\u003cb>: \u003c/b>I was just wondering if like, were the churches built onto the name of the street? Or was it? Or did they come up with the name and then decide to build churches and schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music starts\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>How did this quiet corner of San Francisco come to be home to so many religious communities? And which came first — Brotherhood Way or the institutions on it? Today’s question was selected by you, our podcast listeners in our monthly public voting round. It comes from Noor, who is 11 years old, but to answer it, we get to chat with one source who is 102! That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> KQED Reporter Katherine Monahan set out to Brotherhood Way to check out the houses of worship and find the answer to Noor’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> In the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, blue light shines from the stained glass windows and glitters on the gold-painted walls. The parishioners, in suits and dresses, are lining up to receive communion wine from a long, slim spoon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all feels suffused with a solemn glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>More chanting\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>This church has been around for over a century. And so has one of its members.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I’m Ethel Davies, and I’m 102.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies lives nearby. She answers the door in a navy blue suit, pearls and red lipstick. She doesn’t plan on slowing down anytime soon, so I had to ask: what’s the secret?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>So many people, even my doctor ask me that one. I was a walker. I walked every street in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies says her family came from Greece in the early 1900s and settled south of Market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And were there a lot of Greek Orthodox people in San Francisco at that time?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies:\u003c/b> There were, there were. Yes. South of Market had Irish and Greek people. It was their neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Greektown, as it was called, had traditional coffeehouses and restaurants and a Greek language school. And that was where the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church church used to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>In fact, it was on 7th Street in San Francisco at one time. And today, that is a Ukrainian Orthodox church. And that’s where I was christened when I was an infant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Davies isn’t just a super impressive centenarian. She had a front-row seat to the development of Brotherhood Way because her brother, George Christopher, was the mayor largely responsible for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>I had a total of two brothers and two sisters, and I was the youngest in the family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>And where was George in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Number one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>He was born back in Greece as George Christopheles but later changed the name to Christopher. When he was 14, their father became sick. So George dropped out of school and went to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>My brother? He took over when my father died, and he made a good life for us. Yes, yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>George Christopher went into the milk business and worked his way into the middle class, like many of his fellow Greek immigrants. In the 30s, many Greek families and businesses moved away from Greektown to other neighborhoods. The Christopher family moved out to the southwest side of San Francisco near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, the area was still pretty undeveloped. What would later become Brotherhood Way was a forested canyon with a creek running into Lake Merced. Then, men employed by the New Deal built a road along it called Stanley Drive. It was straight and long and pretty isolated, so for a while, it was a popular drag racing spot for teenagers. At least one car ended up in the lake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davies remembers when her brother had the idea to turn that road into a community space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>He wanted it to be a church area where all the different churches could meet and be friendly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>I assume that he had a relationship with the pastor of the Greek church especially?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Father Anthony. Yes, yes. He was a wonderful man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So after George Christopher became the mayor of San Francisco in 1956, he arranged an auction of the city-owned lands along Stanley Drive. The biggest parcel went to the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church — \u003ci>his church\u003c/i> — which was outgrowing its building south of Market. The rest of the properties went to other religious and community institutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>It really makes friends of the various religions, which they’re all the same. We all believe in one thing, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The faith institutions petitioned the city to change the name of their new address. And in 1958, Stanley Drive became Brotherhood Way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>And I think that Brotherhood Way is a wonderful name anyway, don’t you? Brotherhood Way, yeah. I remember when Father Anthony and my brother celebrated when they came across that name. They were so happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So the places of worship did come first, and the name followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And now, Davies is stepping out for the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethel Davies: \u003c/b>Oh, I’m going to the yacht club with friends for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As Davies heads off to her busy social life, I head back to Brotherhood Way to meet another elder, Judge Quentin Kopp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music stops\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp:\u003c/b> I’m a retired San Mateo County Superior Court judge. And before that, I was a California state senator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Kopp was also on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, and he knew George Christopher through politics. He meets me in front of the Jewish synagogue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>The building has been here since about 1963.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s tall and angular, with peaked red and blue stained glass windows. Kopp and his family have been coming here for six decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>In 1964, the first of three children was born. A boy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Of the original five buildings constructed on Brotherhood Way, four of them were houses of worship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/b> It seemed like religious institution, religious institution, religious institution and then the masonic temple, which, in my understanding, is not specifically religious. How does that fit in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was popular. There was more than one lodge in San Francisco.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Masonry \u003ci>is\u003c/i> certainly a brotherhood — no women are allowed. It’s a worldwide secretive society that, while not religious, promotes fellowship and community service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Quentin Kopp: \u003c/b>Masonry was strong. And, I think that is the origin of giving that property to the Masons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Over the years, Brotherhood Way has evolved to reflect people’s changing beliefs and affiliations. The original properties have been subdivided and new institutions have appeared.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Masonic lodge now rents space to two bridge clubs and a Christian church. Several community centers have opened on the street and an Armenian church,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Babbling sounds of people talking and kids playing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the most recent additions is a non-denominational Christian congregation called New North Church, where the Sunday service has just gotten out. Kids are running around out front, dodging between tables of coffee and pastries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We’re like the new kid on the block. So we’re getting to know our neighbors more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Pastor Rob Hall invites me inside the church, which is shaped like a giant triangle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We know the Armenian Church. We know the the Jewish synagogue. And then we’re also getting to know all the RVs down on Lake Merced. And we, we, we do kind of an outreach where we bring coffee.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says it’s all about being neighborly and that he likes being near the other faith institutions on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall:\u003c/b> We may believe different doctrines and have different beliefs and core tenets, but my experience has been that we help each other because, you know, San Francisco is not an easy place to be a person of faith, no matter what your faith background is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Hall says people in San Francisco don’t go to church as much as they used to. A lot of his parishioners come from the peninsula.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Hall: \u003c/b>We have a lot of different ethnicities represented here and then we’re also multi-generational. So we have a lot of young families with kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>I called Noor, our question-asker, to see what she thinks about what I found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> I mean, I guess I kind of thought that the street came after everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan (in tape): \u003c/b>Yeah. I remember you saying at the beginning. So you were right. You were right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>So, she wasn’t very surprised that the churches came first and then the name Brotherhood Way. But she liked learning about the Christopher family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>When the brother stepped in when the father died, I thought that was pretty cool.\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And she said the story made her think about her school a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian: \u003c/b>It kind of shows that like all the other churches and like school, I guess it kind of shows that everyone on Brotherhood Way is more like a community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That story was brought to us by KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The June voting round is up at BayCurious.org. If you haven’t cast your vote yet, mosey on over to check out the options.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1: \u003c/b>I want to know more about earthquake cottages in SF. Are there any still around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>What you tell me about Brooks Island, the little sister to Angel Island in the San Francisco Bay? Are hikers allowed? Is there any way to get out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>What is the San Francisco Columbarium? I read that once, maybe while it was being restored, people’s remains were stored in the basement of the Coliseum theater on Clement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Noor Moughamian:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Produced by me, Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Xorje Olivares…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: … \u003c/b>Tamuna Chkareuli, Bianca Taylor, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>And the whole KQED family. If you’ve been enjoying Bay Curious, please leave us a rating or a review. They help other people find our show, and honestly, they make our reporters feel super good about the work they’re doing. Thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11989925/which-came-first-the-name-brotherhood-way-or-the-churches-on-it","authors":["11842"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_223","news_28250","news_33520"],"tags":["news_28313","news_856","news_6627"],"featImg":"news_11989937","label":"source_news_11989925"},"news_11786254":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11786254","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11786254","score":null,"sort":[1717668005000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"feel-like-the-bay-used-to-be-bluer","title":"Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It","publishDate":1717668005,"format":"image","headTitle":"Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You’re Not Imagining It | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"A Bay Curious listener remembers when San Francisco Bay was more blue. Why the change?","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1717713922,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":105,"wordCount":3669},"headData":{"title":"Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It | KQED","description":"A Bay Curious listener remembers when San Francisco Bay was more blue. Why the change?","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Feel Like the SF Bay Used to Be Bluer? You're Not Imagining It","datePublished":"2024-06-06T03:00:05-07:00","dateModified":"2024-06-06T15:45:22-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC1381375122.mp3?updated=1717543391","sticky":false,"audioTrackLength":804,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11786254/feel-like-the-bay-used-to-be-bluer","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViG0XoKgnVs\">Heart of the Ocean\u003c/a> is a big blue diamond, the Heart of San Francisco Bay would be a big muddy emerald — or maybe more like a jade stone? Malachite? What I’m saying is, she’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It hasn’t always been that way, though. When Bay Curious listener Justin Hartung was growing up in Oakland, he remembers the bay being blue. After moving to New York for college in the early ’90s, and returning to the East Bay a couple of years ago, he noticed a big difference in the hue of the harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remembered it being much more blue,” he says. “So I wondered if that was a thing, or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin is not wrong. The bay is, in fact, greener now than it was in 1992. It’s the result of a chain reaction of natural processes that includes the rotation of the Earth and something called a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>It ain’t easy being green\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What makes the water appear green are lots of microscopic marine algae called \u003ca href=\"https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/phyto.html\">phytoplankton\u003c/a>. These photosynthetic organisms contain the same chlorophyll that makes plants green. Though they’re tiny, phytoplankton represent the largest biomass in the bay. They typically go through a large bloom in the spring and early summer, providing a plentiful food source for many other aquatic organisms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786309\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11786309\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/iStock-993949074.jpg 1254w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Volvox is a polyphyletic genus of chlorophyte green algae or phytoplankton. \u003ccite>(tonaquatic/iStock)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The animals that feed on phytoplankton include filter feeders like clams and mussels. Back in the early ’90s, when Justin was still in the Bay Area, the clam and mussel populations kept the phytoplankton numbers in check. But toward the end of the decade, things started to shift. We know this only because someone has been keeping track.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surprises are new discoveries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Cloern is a retired aquatic ecologist who spent his 43-year career with the U.S. Geological Survey studying San Francisco Bay. He was \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/insidethegoldengatepart1\">part of a team\u003c/a> that maintains a record of water quality in the bay by doing regular sampling at set locations. The data set goes back to 1968, a longevity most other U.S. waterways don’t have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>“It’s very unusual in the United States,” Cloern says, “I think this USGS program is the longest continuing program of research observation in a bay or estuary in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The program is still running, and scientists head out on sampling cruises about once a month. They started on the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/measure/polaris.html\">R/V Polaris,\u003c/a> and in 2016, moved operations to the \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/wherewhen/2018cruise.html\">catamaran David H. Peterson\u003c/a>, named for the late founder of the project. There’s a new generation of team members now; some work for the USGS, others are PhD candidates doing doctoral research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786416\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3667/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786416\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3667-e1573682049623.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The first light of day as the David H. Peterson takes off from the Port of Redwood City. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3689/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786413\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3689-e1573681974504.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Captain Joel Fritsch is at the helm of the USGS vessel David H. Peterson. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3727/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786410\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3727-e1573681694172.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">PhD candidate Niky Taylor is on the vessel doing doctoral research about the color of the water. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786411\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3714/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786411\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3714-e1573681807629.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Charlie Martin collects a sample from the continuous surface water sampler in the boat’s lab. Later the phytoplankton DNA will be sequenced to see which species are present. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786412\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/img_3701/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11786412\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_3701-e1573681909518.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Erica Nejad prepares for the next sampling stop, where she will drop the CTD (pictured in the background) down into the water to take measurements. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The David H. Peterson, helmed by \u003ca href=\"https://sfbay.wr.usgs.gov/access/wqdata/overview/people/joel.html\">Capt. Joel Fritsch,\u003c/a> takes off from the Port of Redwood City in the predawn hours and heads south, under the Dumbarton Bridge, to their first sampling station. There they turn around and begin the long trek through the entire bay, all the way into the mouth of the Sacramento River.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At each location Fritsch positions the boat, then calls out to the scientists on board that they’re free to begin working. The team jumps to action. With so many sampling locations and so far to go, they have only minutes to do the work they’re here for, and the distance between the stops is sometimes as short as five or seven minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11786346\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 317px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11786346\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"317\" height=\"340\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt.jpg 601w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/stnmaplt-160x172.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 317px) 100vw, 317px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of the locations where water sampling is conducted by USGS scientists. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of USGS)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The information being gathered includes the temperature, salinity, turbidity or cloudiness, and chlorophyll concentrations. Water samples are also being collected from the bottom of the bay and along the surface water. They’re stored for later research and DNA sequencing to keep track of which phytoplankton species are present.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cloern says maintaining this robust data set is vital to keeping track of the bay. “The longer we do this, the more we’re surprised,” he says, “and surprises are new discoveries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s because of this monitoring that the USGS team noticed a shift in the phytoplankton concentrations in the late ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>One thing leads to another\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Starting around 1998–99, phytoplankton populations rose. The researchers saw blooms in the fall, which was very unusual. After consulting with colleagues who research bivalves in the bay, they discovered that clam and mussel populations had dropped significantly. These animals would normally filter out the phytoplankton, but their low numbers meant phytoplankton were proliferating and causing a greening period in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took the USGS team several more years to discover the cause for the low numbers of bivalves. Eventually they found that it’s all the result of a \u003ca href=\"https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2010GL044774\">massive climate shift\u003c/a> that began around that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The direction of the prevailing winds in the north Pacific Ocean has been observed to oscillate every 30 to 40 years. The last of these shifts occurred in the late ’90s, with the direction shifting from a south to north pattern, to a north to south pattern. Because of the Coriolis effect caused by the rotation of the Earth, the north to south winds cause the surface water along the coast to push west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the currents push west, they also churn up colder, more nutrient-dense water from the bottom of the ocean. This process is called coastal upwelling. Many marine animals thrive in this nutrient-rich water, setting off a trophic cascade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Flatfish, crabs and shrimp all use San Francisco Bay as a nursery for their young. When this coastal upwelling began to occur, their populations grew, leading to more juveniles in the bay. All of these organisms eat clams and mussels, which led to a drop in those populations. That’s how you end up with more phytoplankton abundance and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we ever go back to blue?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>This North Pacific oscillation process is a natural one and is not the result of human-caused climate change. It is likely that in the next of these large wind shifts, the pattern will reverse, leading to an increase in bivalve populations and fewer phytoplankton, thus bluer water. As long as the USGS sampling program continues, we’ll be able to track those changes over the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published November 14, 2019 and was updated and republished on June 6, 2024.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you spend any time along the shores or on the water inside the Golden Gate, you may have thought the bay looks less ocean blue and more olive green these days. Justin Hartung definitely thinks so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Yes, I noticed it driving across the bridge mostly. I live right here in Emeryville, so the water, especially right here by the bridge, is really green some days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Justin grew up in Oakland’s Montclair neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>Moved to New York around 1992 for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And when he moved back a couple years ago, the bay itself looked very different to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung: \u003c/strong>I remember it being much more blue, so I wondered if that was a thing or if I was just remembering things incorrectly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay area. Today on the show, we’ll find out if Justin’s observations hold water. We’ll learn what makes water appear different colors, and meet some scientists who have been studying this very question for decades. This story first aired in 2019. I’m Olivia Ellen Price. We’ll get to it right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Justin Hartung brought his question to Bay. Curious. You selected it in a public voting round, and now reporter Amanda Font heads out in search of answers about the colors of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Incremental change is hard to see when you’re looking at something every day, like how your hair looks just as long today as it did yesterday. Even though it has grown a little, you could look at an old photo of yourself to see a difference, but that won’t work. If we’re looking for subtle color changes in the bay, the only way to know for sure is through data. And lots of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Many parts of the bay are very different today than they were 43 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Luckily, someone has been collecting that data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> My name is Jim Cloern. I’m trained as a lake biologist, but I’ve spent my entire career working in San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Jim is recently retired from the U.S. Geological Survey, but he spent more than four decades studying how the bay is influenced by human activities, and he’s seen a lot of change. I asked Jim if he could answer Justin’s question just straight up. Is the Bay really greener?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Okay. But the color of water is a pretty complicated subject.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All right, kids, buckle up for some science.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> When I think about the color of water in California, the first thing I think about is Lake Tahoe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>You’ve probably seen those bumper stickers that say Keep Tahoe Blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Well, what does that mean? Lake Tahoe is pretty much snow melt is pretty close to pure water. It doesn’t have much in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> And if you held up a drop and looked at it, it would pretty much be clear. It’s light that influences how we see the color of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> So water absorbs red and green and orange and yellow and violet, but it doesn’t absorb blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Blue light has a much shorter wavelength. So unlike the colors of light with longer wavelengths, same red or orange, it doesn’t snake through the water molecules as easily. It bangs into that. And where they hit the molecules. The blue light waves scatter. And your eye perceives more blue light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so when sunlight penetrates into a lake like Lake Tahoe, all of these other colors are absorbed by the water. But what’s left behind is the blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This light scattering is also the reason the sky looks blue. So if when you were a kid, your mom or dad told you the sky is blue because it reflects the ocean, and the ocean is blue because it reflects the sky? Yeah, they probably just didn’t know the answer. Or you were asking too many questions. So in the bay, when you see any other color besides blue, you’re really seeing particles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Particles and other colors. There are living particles and there are non-living particles. The non-living particles are mostly clay particles that come from soils.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> This sediment gets into the water through erosion runoff after it rains, and via the multiple rivers that flow into the bay. Currents churn up the sediment, which can make the water look brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> The living particles are microscopic algae. Phytoplankton. The phytoplankton have the same chlorophyl that land plants have that makes them green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> It’s these phytoplankton that give the water a greenish hue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now the question of has there been a long term trend of greenness in the bay? It’s it sounds like a simple question, but it’s not as simple and straightforward as you would think, because we have all these sources of variability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The bay isn’t a static thing. It changes seasonally. Day to day, hour to hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And so if there’s a long term trend, all of that variability makes it hard to detect a long term pattern of change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Here’s where all the data comes in at the USGS. Jim was also part of a project that since 1968, has been collecting water samples in the bay to measure changes over time. These sampling cruises happen about once a month. I talked with Erika Nejat on one of them. She’s a biologist who works for the USGS. This day, she was using specialized instruments to collect the measurements of several different factors, including chlorophyl content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat:\u003c/strong> So? So the CTD is taking vertical profiles of the water column at different stations. Every station we stop at is getting a. Complete vertical profile of the app space and time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> The CTD that stands for conductivity, temperature and depth is a bundle of different sensors attached together. At the end of a cable at each of the sampling locations, Erica lowers this thing slowly to the bottom of the bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Nejat: \u003c/strong>They added this nice camera so I can see what the CTD’s at surface. So I want to start right sitting at surface, and then I go to as close to bottom as I can get without rubbing it into the bottom. So I can see my depth here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> All the way down. It’s scanning, taking measurements and reporting them back. It comes back up with a sample of deep water so they can study the phytoplankton species later. There’s also a continuous surface water sampler running inside the lab on the boat, and a special instrument that is taking pictures of individual phytoplankton in real time. They’re collecting a ton of information so that when you look at the larger data set, patterns start to emerge. Here’s Jim again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> We have measured over the last two decades a trend of increasing phytoplankton. So two things are going on that would make the bay look greener over time. Decreased sediment input, less brown, increasing phytoplankton abundance more green. So yes, there is a trend of increasing greenness in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There you have it. It is greener. But we’re not done yet. Because, like Ricardo Montalban in The Wrath of Khan, I want to know why. Why? Why are there more phytoplankton now than before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> Now we need to talk about biological communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Phytoplankton are small, but they take up a lot of space. Little on the aggregate, but massive on the whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> If you could weigh all of the communities that live in the bay the phytoplankton, the bacteria, the clams, them, the mussels, the crabs, the fish, the phytoplankton would weigh the most. It’s the living component that has the largest living biomass in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> They’re right at the base of the food web. A lot of them are eaten by clams and mussels, which are filter feeders. They pull in and blow out water through a tube like structure called a siphon, and in the process, they filter out the nutritious phytoplankton. They used to do this at a pretty astounding rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> And we calculated this is over three decades ago, that if you if you know how many clams and mussels are in the bay, how large they are, you can calculate how fast they’re filtering water. The clams and mussels that live in the bay are pumping a volume of water that’s equal to the volume of water in the bay every one or two days during the summertime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever gone swimming in the bay and gotten water in your mouth, just know that it has probably been filtered through a clam. So back before 1998, those clams and mussels were keeping the phytoplankton population under control. But then things started to shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And in 1999, we started seeing changes in the seasonal pattern of the phytoplankton. We saw bloom in the autumn. We’d never seen anything like that before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Our question asker, Justin, was living in New York in 1999, so he didn’t see this shift until it was well underway. The extra phytoplankton blooms were a mystery to Jim and the team, until they checked in with their colleagues who study the clams. They could hardly find any in the bay, but other species numbers were growing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern:\u003c/strong> They started seeing record high numbers of crabs in the bay, flatfish in the bay like, you know, Seoul and record high numbers of shrimp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Those animals are all coastal marine organisms who live their adult lives in the ocean. But they’re young. Spend the first year or two of life in the shelter of the bay, and they all eat clams.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Amanda, to make sure I have this starting in 1999, we have more clam eaters, fewer clams, thus more photo plankton and greener water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is called a trophic cascade. A change in one part of the food web sets off a cascading effect on the other organisms in it, and the clam eater numbers are still up, which is why the water is still that rich shade of artichoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Why the sudden influx of other animals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong> We have learned over the last couple of decades that there are natural cycles of the climate system that fluctuate over periods of multiple decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>There are these huge wind oscillations that happen way out in the North Pacific Ocean. Around 1999, the direction of the winds shifted in a way that caused the ocean along our coast to churn up cold water from the deep. This is called coastal upwelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>And the cold, deep water is rich in nutrients. So this phase of strong winds, strong upwelling is a period of high biological productivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right. So the winds blow. It shifts the ocean climate feeds the flatfish, crabs and shrimp. Their babies drift into the bay, eat the clams. The photo plankton populations grow and the water turns green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>That’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And this has something to do with human caused climate change, I assume.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>Actually, no. Jim made it clear that this is not something that has been caused by human actions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>These aren’t responses to global climate change. This is part of the natural oscillation of the climate system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Does that mean the water will eventually go back to looking more blue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>So this greening period that we’ve experienced since 1998, we might reverse that pattern if we see this next climate shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font: \u003c/strong>The only way we’ll really know for sure is if we keep collecting data so we can observe long term changes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>It’s really important for us to keep making measurements, keep making observations, because the longer we do this, the more we’re surprised. And surprises are new discoveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was reporter Amanda Font. She took the story back to listener Justin Hartung to see what he thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Cloern: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to know that it’s not the climate. I’m glad to know it’s not my failing eyesight or my bad memory. So. Mystery definitely solved. I can also tell my dad that I am not crazy. What she told me was when I told him about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So thanks for asking the question, Justin. If you’re digging the podcast, you will definitely dig \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">our email newsletter\u003c/a>. We send it out the first Wednesday of the month, and it has answers to more listener questions, and we have time to get into on the show. Plus, behind the scenes tidbits like how we used a theremin to make sounds for this episode. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amanda Font:\u003c/strong> Ok, try now. I’m so sweaty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">Subscribe at Bay curious.org\u003c/a> and you can always find a link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Justin Hartung:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale: \u003c/strong>Produced by Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And me Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Paul Lancour:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Paul Lancour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jen Chien: \u003c/strong>Jen Chien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holly Kernan:\u003c/strong> Holly Kernan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And the whole KQED family. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11786254/feel-like-the-bay-used-to-be-bluer","authors":["8637"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520","news_356"],"tags":["news_18426","news_24374","news_1861","news_664"],"featImg":"news_11786449","label":"source_news_11786254"},"news_11987286":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11987286","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11987286","score":null,"sort":[1716458448000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"ever-seen-a-koi-fish-on-the-sidewalk-artist-explains-hidden-meaning","title":"Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning","publishDate":1716458448,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you take a walk around San Francisco, it won’t take long before you see a koi fish. Not a real one, of course, although the bright orange-and-white graffiti art has the fluidity of a real fish hovering in the water. The stenciled koi on our city streets range in size from a foot long to the length of a whale. They float along city sidewalks and up walls as if this urban landscape were their native pond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all over the Bay Area, concentrated in San Francisco,” says \u003ca href=\"https://jeremynovystencils.com/\">Jeremy Novy\u003c/a>, the artist behind the bright carp fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy says he’s painted more than 8,000 koi in the Bay Area since he started stenciling them in 2008. Koi imagery inspired him when he traveled to China as a college student in 2006. There, the fish symbolizes prosperity, good fortune and perseverance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in China, Novy studied the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966–76), when the communist government tried to purge the culture of the traditional elements. Novy says that to preserve their heritage, people turned to the symbolism in art. They would hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. He decided to bring the concept back to the United States and marry it with contemporary material — the concrete of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I stencil koi to create a kind of nature, zen moment in our urban landscape, instead of real water and real fish,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he first started painting koi, he lived in his home state of Wisconsin. After moving to San Francisco, the first koi he painted was in the Mission District, in front of the Women’s Building on 18th Street. He says the power of the mural on the community center inspired him. Next, he took his project to the hidden alleyways of the Tenderloin and, later, began painting koi in front of the businesses he frequented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987356\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987356\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg\" alt=\"Three koi fish swirl in a circle along the corner of a blue residential building.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from homeowners to paint koi on or near their homes. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli /KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Slowly, koi have become somewhat commonplace on the streets of the Bay Area. During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from San Francisco homeowners as a way to cheer people up during the quarantine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We weren’t able to go to museums and galleries, but we were able to go to the grocery store and do these small activities,” Novy says. “So having art in different neighborhoods and small areas was very important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His biggest creations, two 75-foot koi, are now swimming on the square between the Asian Art Museum and the San Francisco Library in Fulton Plaza. It took him two months to get permission, but in the end, Novy and his team of volunteers completed the work. It was funded through \u003ca href=\"https://illuminate.org/\">Illuminate\u003c/a>, a donor-funded effort to revitalize San Francisco using large-scale art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 793px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg\" alt=\"An aerial image of a pedestrian plaza, where two large koi fish "swim" around a statue. It's night time and the city lights are on display in surrounding buildings. A block away, San Francisco City Hall is illuminated with red white and blue. \" width=\"793\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg 793w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240-160x207.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 793px) 100vw, 793px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It took Novy and his team three days to paint the whale-sized koi fish in Fulton Plaza. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Jeremy Novy)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Novy brings Chinese feng shui and numerology ideas to his paintings. There is a hidden meaning within each work, based on the number of koi in the group. For instance, a koi that appears by itself symbolizes overcoming obstacles. According to legend, one stubborn koi spent ninety years trying to jump a waterfall, and when it did, it was gifted a new life as a water dragon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two koi appearing together symbolize double happiness, and three stand for stages of life, from birth to death. Novy usually skips the number four because it’s an unlucky number and a symbol of death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The number that Novy identifies with most is five, for the transformation that it symbolizes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little lost in life,” he says. “It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress, and also to communicate with people in a beautiful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The color of the koi has meaning in Chinese mythology, too. Black koi absorb negativity, according to Novy. Yellow fish are about money and prosperity. The orange and white fish, which are the most numerous here in San Francisco, are a nod to the Giants and our state flower, the California poppy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rainbow-coloured koi are Novy’s latest creations, which he has stenciled around New Orleans in recent months during an artist-in-residence. He hopes to bring them home to the Bay soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy believes art is therapeutic not just for people who make it, but to the viewer. So, he says it’s important to make it accessible to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He hopes the fish make people happy and inspires them to “overcome anything that they may be dealing with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wander around the Bay Area long enough, and you are certain to stumble upon one of our most ubiquitous pieces of street art. Schools of playful, graphic koi fish swimming through our urban landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe the first one I saw was near my house. I’ve lived in two places in San Francisco, and both of them have a koi-like right outside the door. My name is Layf Kutschera. And I am an interior designer and watercolor artist here in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Soon after Layf noticed the koi for the first time, he started seeing them everywhere — usually on sidewalks but sometimes on buildings. They’re anywhere for a few inches to a few feet long. And their colors? High contrast…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Vibrant orange, white, black\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Layf wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to know the backstory behind these fish, which seem to be spawning all over the place. So today on the show, we’ll meet the person behind them, learn what inspired the koi and decode the hidden message within each design. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For our question asker Layf Kutschera, the koi stencils often spotted in our region have become a delight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s just great to see color in our gray cityscape. Once you see one, you kind of keep an eye out for other ones, and then they become a little treat!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re also a treat for Tamuna Chkareuli, a journalism fellow from the Republic of Georgia. She’s been embedded with the Bay Curious team for the last three weeks. She’ll take the story from here…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound from a street in San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t relate more to our question-asker. It was my first week in San Francisco when I saw 2-foot-long bright orange koi fish stenciled on my street. Then, I saw three more on my morning run. Suddenly, the city was full of hidden ponds! I started to see them everywhere. To me, they felt like a warm welcome in a new place. And these koi swam a really long way to be here — all the way from China.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got to travel around a lot of China, see a lot of really interesting things that definitely had an influence and an impact on my life. My name is Jeremy Novy. I’m a stencil street artist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jeremy has been working in the Bay Area for sixteen years, but the inspiration behind his art goes back decades to the Cultural Revolution in China, which started in 1966.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China was told to destroy the old to make way for the new, which meant getting rid of, like, feng shui ideas. And so they became, kind of kind of scared that their history would be lost forever. So they devised a plan that they were going to hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy releases his koi to the ponds of concrete in groups. He’ll paint anywhere from one koi fish to as many as nine. And just like in China, there’s a hidden meaning behind the number of koi Jeremy paints.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of flowing water begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One symbolizes perseverance, overcoming obstacles and strength. There’s a story of a koi that spent 90 years trying to jump up a waterfall, and it finally jumped up the waterfall, and the gods appeased it by turning it into the Asian water dragon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sparkley sound effect. Water sound fades. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two symbolizes double happiness or good things come in pairs. And who doesn’t want to be happy? Not once, but over and over again. Three represents the three stages of life: birth, marriage and death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re unlikely to see four koi fish painted together. Four is a forbidden number in Chinese, a symbol of death, so he usually skips it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Five symbolizes transformation, the story of an emperor coming from peasantry and walking through five gates before becoming emperor. The last one being that of the Forbidden City. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And for that reason, a group of five koi is special for Jeremy. It is the transformation he identifies with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little bit lost in life. It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress. And it’s been a way for me to communicate with people in a very beautiful way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Six koi is about entrepreneurship and business. Seven — about the community. If you ever see eight koi swirling around on the sidewalk, it’s your lucky day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music fades\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nine represents the universe and everything in it, including all of the other eight lucky numbers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The colors Jeremy uses have meaning too. Black absorbs all the negativity, so if you had a bad day and see a black koi — go stand on it! Golden koi are the money fish that bring prosperity into your life. And orange is a nod to the state flower, the California poppy, and the San Francisco Giants. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy started painting koi in 2008, and he has lost count of how many are out there, but he says there must be at least 8,000 of them all over the Bay Area. He still remembers the first one he made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly across the street from the Women’s Center on 18th Street. I stenciled them there because I really thought that the mural at the Women’s Center was a very beautiful thing. I was very fascinated with some of the symbolism and the empowerment of women that is found in that mural. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From hidden alleyways, the koi swam to more open waters. This year, Jeremy and a team of volunteers painted two whale-sized koi in Fulton Plaza, right near City Hall. It was a lot of work. They made a grid of 5-foot squares, and Jeremy painted koi in those sections, using primer, exterior paint and a sealant. Those koi also carry tiny reflective glass beads in them, like what’s used in lane markings on the highway, so the fish can glow when the light hits them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing. It somehow feels that, like, what I’m doing is right. And I’ve, before, had to deal with concern about the police arresting me for doing my art without permission. So it feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once a secretive project, Jeremy’s koi are now a common sight in public spaces. He says that his art is not there to take over the area or make a statement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Art is a therapeutic experience for those who make it, but it’s also a hugely therapeutic experience for people that see it. And not everybody has money and galleries to experience art. Whenever I put them out there, it’s just about trying to bring peace to people’s daily life and a little bit of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like the real koi in a pond would do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends, signaling the end of the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I love about this story, Tamuna, is that I’ve been seeing these koi all over the Bay Area for years and never knew the meaning behind them. And now I’m going to see them in a whole new light. I cannot wait until the next time I stumble upon them on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jeremy did commissions during the pandemic when people could just call him and commission to have koi painted in front of their house. So now, when I see koi in front of somebody’s porch, I’m wondering why they picked this number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ooo! Now, if you were to get a commissioned piece, which number would you pick? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go with one. About perseverance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm! Why?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a water dragon inside me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> (laughing) I love that. Tamuna Chkareuli, thank you so much for this story and for part of the Bay Curious team these past three weeks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had a blast. Thanks for having me! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Leif Kutschera for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to BayCurious.org and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at BayCurious.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’d like to offer a special shout-out to our listener, Cassie. Hope you have a magical birthday! From your friend, Ashley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Curious team is taking a breather next week for Memorial Day, so we will not be releasing an episode. But I hope you will listen to our back catalog. There are so many hidden gems in there. So go check it out. We’ll be back the first week of June. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by me, Pauline Bartolone…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tamuna Chkareuli, Katrina Schwartz and Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional support from Paul Lancour….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lusen Mendel, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And if I can, I will grant you eight koi today. It’s your lucky day!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"There's a hidden meaning behind the koi fish stencils, which can be found all over the Bay Area and in some other cities, too.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1716494021,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":64,"wordCount":2639},"headData":{"title":"Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning | KQED","description":"There's a hidden meaning behind the koi fish stencils, which can be found all over the Bay Area and in some other cities, too.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Ever Seen A Koi Fish on the Sidewalk? Artist Explains Hidden Meaning","datePublished":"2024-05-23T03:00:48-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-23T12:53:41-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC3303793111.mp3?updated=1716411713","sticky":false,"nprByline":"Tamuna Chkareuli","nprStoryId":"kqed-11987286","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11987286/ever-seen-a-koi-fish-on-the-sidewalk-artist-explains-hidden-meaning","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you take a walk around San Francisco, it won’t take long before you see a koi fish. Not a real one, of course, although the bright orange-and-white graffiti art has the fluidity of a real fish hovering in the water. The stenciled koi on our city streets range in size from a foot long to the length of a whale. They float along city sidewalks and up walls as if this urban landscape were their native pond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are all over the Bay Area, concentrated in San Francisco,” says \u003ca href=\"https://jeremynovystencils.com/\">Jeremy Novy\u003c/a>, the artist behind the bright carp fish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy says he’s painted more than 8,000 koi in the Bay Area since he started stenciling them in 2008. Koi imagery inspired him when he traveled to China as a college student in 2006. There, the fish symbolizes prosperity, good fortune and perseverance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While in China, Novy studied the Chinese Cultural Revolution (1966–76), when the communist government tried to purge the culture of the traditional elements. Novy says that to preserve their heritage, people turned to the symbolism in art. They would hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. He decided to bring the concept back to the United States and marry it with contemporary material — the concrete of the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I stencil koi to create a kind of nature, zen moment in our urban landscape, instead of real water and real fish,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he first started painting koi, he lived in his home state of Wisconsin. After moving to San Francisco, the first koi he painted was in the Mission District, in front of the Women’s Building on 18th Street. He says the power of the mural on the community center inspired him. Next, he took his project to the hidden alleyways of the Tenderloin and, later, began painting koi in front of the businesses he frequented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987356\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987356\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg\" alt=\"Three koi fish swirl in a circle along the corner of a blue residential building.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Koi-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from homeowners to paint koi on or near their homes. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli /KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Slowly, koi have become somewhat commonplace on the streets of the Bay Area. During the pandemic, Novy took commissions from San Francisco homeowners as a way to cheer people up during the quarantine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We weren’t able to go to museums and galleries, but we were able to go to the grocery store and do these small activities,” Novy says. “So having art in different neighborhoods and small areas was very important.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His biggest creations, two 75-foot koi, are now swimming on the square between the Asian Art Museum and the San Francisco Library in Fulton Plaza. It took him two months to get permission, but in the end, Novy and his team of volunteers completed the work. It was funded through \u003ca href=\"https://illuminate.org/\">Illuminate\u003c/a>, a donor-funded effort to revitalize San Francisco using large-scale art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11987357\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 793px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11987357\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg\" alt=\"An aerial image of a pedestrian plaza, where two large koi fish "swim" around a statue. It's night time and the city lights are on display in surrounding buildings. A block away, San Francisco City Hall is illuminated with red white and blue. \" width=\"793\" height=\"1024\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240.jpg 793w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/DJI_20240-160x207.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 793px) 100vw, 793px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It took Novy and his team three days to paint the whale-sized koi fish in Fulton Plaza. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Jeremy Novy)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Novy brings Chinese feng shui and numerology ideas to his paintings. There is a hidden meaning within each work, based on the number of koi in the group. For instance, a koi that appears by itself symbolizes overcoming obstacles. According to legend, one stubborn koi spent ninety years trying to jump a waterfall, and when it did, it was gifted a new life as a water dragon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Two koi appearing together symbolize double happiness, and three stand for stages of life, from birth to death. Novy usually skips the number four because it’s an unlucky number and a symbol of death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The number that Novy identifies with most is five, for the transformation that it symbolizes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little lost in life,” he says. “It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress, and also to communicate with people in a beautiful way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The color of the koi has meaning in Chinese mythology, too. Black koi absorb negativity, according to Novy. Yellow fish are about money and prosperity. The orange and white fish, which are the most numerous here in San Francisco, are a nod to the Giants and our state flower, the California poppy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rainbow-coloured koi are Novy’s latest creations, which he has stenciled around New Orleans in recent months during an artist-in-residence. He hopes to bring them home to the Bay soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history,” Novy says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Novy believes art is therapeutic not just for people who make it, but to the viewer. So, he says it’s important to make it accessible to everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He hopes the fish make people happy and inspires them to “overcome anything that they may be dealing with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wander around the Bay Area long enough, and you are certain to stumble upon one of our most ubiquitous pieces of street art. Schools of playful, graphic koi fish swimming through our urban landscape.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe the first one I saw was near my house. I’ve lived in two places in San Francisco, and both of them have a koi-like right outside the door. My name is Layf Kutschera. And I am an interior designer and watercolor artist here in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Soon after Layf noticed the koi for the first time, he started seeing them everywhere — usually on sidewalks but sometimes on buildings. They’re anywhere for a few inches to a few feet long. And their colors? High contrast…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Vibrant orange, white, black\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Layf wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to know the backstory behind these fish, which seem to be spawning all over the place. So today on the show, we’ll meet the person behind them, learn what inspired the koi and decode the hidden message within each design. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For our question asker Layf Kutschera, the koi stencils often spotted in our region have become a delight\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Layf Kutschera:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s just great to see color in our gray cityscape. Once you see one, you kind of keep an eye out for other ones, and then they become a little treat!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re also a treat for Tamuna Chkareuli, a journalism fellow from the Republic of Georgia. She’s been embedded with the Bay Curious team for the last three weeks. She’ll take the story from here…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound from a street in San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I couldn’t relate more to our question-asker. It was my first week in San Francisco when I saw 2-foot-long bright orange koi fish stenciled on my street. Then, I saw three more on my morning run. Suddenly, the city was full of hidden ponds! I started to see them everywhere. To me, they felt like a warm welcome in a new place. And these koi swam a really long way to be here — all the way from China.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got to travel around a lot of China, see a lot of really interesting things that definitely had an influence and an impact on my life. My name is Jeremy Novy. I’m a stencil street artist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jeremy has been working in the Bay Area for sixteen years, but the inspiration behind his art goes back decades to the Cultural Revolution in China, which started in 1966.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">China was told to destroy the old to make way for the new, which meant getting rid of, like, feng shui ideas. And so they became, kind of kind of scared that their history would be lost forever. So they devised a plan that they were going to hide Chinese lucky numbers in koi paintings. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy releases his koi to the ponds of concrete in groups. He’ll paint anywhere from one koi fish to as many as nine. And just like in China, there’s a hidden meaning behind the number of koi Jeremy paints.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of flowing water begins.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One symbolizes perseverance, overcoming obstacles and strength. There’s a story of a koi that spent 90 years trying to jump up a waterfall, and it finally jumped up the waterfall, and the gods appeased it by turning it into the Asian water dragon. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sparkley sound effect. Water sound fades. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two symbolizes double happiness or good things come in pairs. And who doesn’t want to be happy? Not once, but over and over again. Three represents the three stages of life: birth, marriage and death. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re unlikely to see four koi fish painted together. Four is a forbidden number in Chinese, a symbol of death, so he usually skips it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Five symbolizes transformation, the story of an emperor coming from peasantry and walking through five gates before becoming emperor. The last one being that of the Forbidden City. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And for that reason, a group of five koi is special for Jeremy. It is the transformation he identifies with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If it wasn’t for street art, I think that I would be a little bit lost in life. It’s been a place for me to put my depression, my anxiety and my stress. And it’s been a way for me to communicate with people in a very beautiful way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Six koi is about entrepreneurship and business. Seven — about the community. If you ever see eight koi swirling around on the sidewalk, it’s your lucky day.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music fades\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And nine represents the universe and everything in it, including all of the other eight lucky numbers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The colors Jeremy uses have meaning too. Black absorbs all the negativity, so if you had a bad day and see a black koi — go stand on it! Golden koi are the money fish that bring prosperity into your life. And orange is a nod to the state flower, the California poppy, and the San Francisco Giants. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jeremy started painting koi in 2008, and he has lost count of how many are out there, but he says there must be at least 8,000 of them all over the Bay Area. He still remembers the first one he made. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was exactly across the street from the Women’s Center on 18th Street. I stenciled them there because I really thought that the mural at the Women’s Center was a very beautiful thing. I was very fascinated with some of the symbolism and the empowerment of women that is found in that mural. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From hidden alleyways, the koi swam to more open waters. This year, Jeremy and a team of volunteers painted two whale-sized koi in Fulton Plaza, right near City Hall. It was a lot of work. They made a grid of 5-foot squares, and Jeremy painted koi in those sections, using primer, exterior paint and a sealant. Those koi also carry tiny reflective glass beads in them, like what’s used in lane markings on the highway, so the fish can glow when the light hits them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s kind of amazing. It somehow feels that, like, what I’m doing is right. And I’ve, before, had to deal with concern about the police arresting me for doing my art without permission. So it feels very nice that people have recognized what I’m doing as being an important part of the art community and art history.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once a secretive project, Jeremy’s koi are now a common sight in public spaces. He says that his art is not there to take over the area or make a statement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jeremy Novy: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Art is a therapeutic experience for those who make it, but it’s also a hugely therapeutic experience for people that see it. And not everybody has money and galleries to experience art. Whenever I put them out there, it’s just about trying to bring peace to people’s daily life and a little bit of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just like the real koi in a pond would do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music ends, signaling the end of the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I love about this story, Tamuna, is that I’ve been seeing these koi all over the Bay Area for years and never knew the meaning behind them. And now I’m going to see them in a whole new light. I cannot wait until the next time I stumble upon them on the street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Jeremy did commissions during the pandemic when people could just call him and commission to have koi painted in front of their house. So now, when I see koi in front of somebody’s porch, I’m wondering why they picked this number.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ooo! Now, if you were to get a commissioned piece, which number would you pick? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go with one. About perseverance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm! Why?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there’s a water dragon inside me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> (laughing) I love that. Tamuna Chkareuli, thank you so much for this story and for part of the Bay Curious team these past three weeks!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I had a blast. Thanks for having me! \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Leif Kutschera for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to BayCurious.org and ask! While you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter, where we often answer even more listener questions than we can get to on the podcast. Again, it’s all at BayCurious.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This week, we’d like to offer a special shout-out to our listener, Cassie. Hope you have a magical birthday! From your friend, Ashley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Curious team is taking a breather next week for Memorial Day, so we will not be releasing an episode. But I hope you will listen to our back catalog. There are so many hidden gems in there. So go check it out. We’ll be back the first week of June. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by me, Pauline Bartolone…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tamuna Chkareuli, Katrina Schwartz and Christopher Beale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional support from Paul Lancour….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Everyone saying their own names: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lusen Mendel, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Xorje Olivares, Holly Kernan …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. And if I can, I will grant you eight koi today. It’s your lucky day!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11987286/ever-seen-a-koi-fish-on-the-sidewalk-artist-explains-hidden-meaning","authors":["byline_news_11987286"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_29992","news_223","news_8"],"tags":["news_18294","news_34097","news_3012","news_19029"],"featImg":"news_11987354","label":"news_33523"},"news_11986396":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11986396","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11986396","score":null,"sort":[1715853627000]},"parent":0,"labelTerm":{"site":"news","term":33523},"blocks":[],"publishDate":1715853627,"format":"standard","title":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go","headTitle":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go | KQED","content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Radhika Rao, UC San Francisco College of Law\"]‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’[/pullquote]One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Alicia Trost, BART\"]‘There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted if not destroyed because of the building of the BART system.’[/pullquote]“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","stats":{"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"hasAudio":false,"hasPolis":false,"wordCount":4872,"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"iframeSrcs":[],"paragraphCount":141},"modified":1715965297,"excerpt":"Building the BART system in the 1960s required thousands of parcels of land. Decades later, memories of the homes and communities that were destroyed remain strong","headData":{"twImgId":"","twTitle":"","ogTitle":"","ogImgId":"","twDescription":"","description":"Building the BART system in the 1960s required thousands of parcels of land. Decades later, memories of the homes and communities that were destroyed remain strong","title":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go | KQED","ogDescription":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"When BART Was Built, People — and Houses — Had to Go","datePublished":"2024-05-16T03:00:27-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-17T10:01:37-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","status":"publish","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5722041302.mp3?updated=1715818705","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","sticky":false,"articleAge":"0","nprStoryId":"kqed-11986396","path":"/news/11986396/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the early 1960s, when BART was just a sketch on a map, planners with the young transit agency had a task in front of them. BART had to acquire around 2,200 parcels of land in order to build the transportation system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Exactly how the agency went about getting that land was something that always puzzled Janine Dictor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For her, the question was also personal. Growing up, her family would tell stories about an amazing house her great-grandparents used to own in North Oakland, at 59th, and what is now Martin Luther King Jr. Way (it was called Grove Street back then). But the stories always ended with how they had to sell their home to BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>“There was always a sad tone to the story as if they didn’t have control over it,” Dictor said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dictor’s great-grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo, loved that house. They were both immigrants from Italy, and they kept the house full of family, friends and good food. Vito tended a bountiful garden in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandmother loved to cook in the basement,” said Johanne Dictor, Janine’s mother. “She had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli; she made her sausages with her women friends.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a happy time, but it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ‘60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember we’d be sitting at the table and they’d say, ‘They’re going to take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here.’ And you know, they just were devastated,” said Johanne about her grandparents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but he felt it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He’d sit on the porch in San Leandro looking so sad,” remembers Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All this history left Janine wondering how exactly the sale of her great-grandparents’ house went down. So she asked KQED’s Bay Curious to look into how much property BART acquired at the time of its inception and whether any homeowners challenged the agency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There must be a pretty robust story behind all of this, and it’s just odd that we never have known quite what it is,” Janine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986429\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1384px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/vito_elizabeth_family/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986429\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png\" alt=\"An old black-and-white photo of a family in their living room\" width=\"1384\" height=\"1020\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family.png 1384w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-800x590.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-1020x752.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Vito_Elizabeth_family-160x118.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1384px) 100vw, 1384px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo (center) left their North Oakland home in the 1960s to make room for a BART line. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Campilongo family)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>And so BART begins\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Like much of the country in the early 1950s, the Bay Area was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region, in places like Concord and Fremont. City planners had to figure out how folks would get around and travel between all these developments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State lawmakers began \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=San_Francisco_Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Commission%E2%80%94The_Beginnings\">mapping out\u003c/a> a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. In 1957, they passed a bill creating the Bay Area Rapid Transit District.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. As an entity charged with building public infrastructure, BART was given the power of eminent domain, a legal tool that helped it acquire the needed property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Radhika Rao, a professor at UC San Francisco College of the Law, eminent domain allows the government to take people’s property “even if they don’t consent,” as long as it pays them fair market value for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eminent domain is an important tool for governments, said Rao, because infrastructure projects like hospitals, public schools, highways, parks and train tracks might never be built without it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Because you could have one private property owner who says, ‘My house stands in the way, you can’t build a highway,’ and then we have no highway. So our infrastructure depends upon government having this power,” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Rao says, historically, the use of eminent domain in California has disproportionately affected low-income people and communities of color.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"medium","align":"right","citation":"Radhika Rao, UC San Francisco College of Law","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One reason, she said, is that government agencies often use eminent domain in areas with lower property values since it costs them less to acquire that property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?” Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reason for the disproportionate impact, suggests Rao, is that government officials choose to develop areas where residents are less likely to organize against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying, ‘the compensation that you’re offering me is not fair market value?’ Rao said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>West Oakland residents displaced\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the places in the Bay Area hit hardest by eminent domain projects — including, but not limited to, BART construction — was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maxine Willis Ussery was born in Shreveport, Louisiana in 1939, but her family moved to West Oakland when she was just a few years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I was a girl, Seventh Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly Black, owned by Black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Her mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They had no problems understanding that they had to develop their own businesses, their own services because that’s how they lived in the South,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed: drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors, and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway (Interstate 880) in the 1950s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for the Oakland Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/232778\">there was BART\u003c/a>. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that between 5,100 and 9,700 housing units were lost in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dispersement of a whole community, not just taking the buildings, it was taking people who had lived there. Teachers, athletes, all of them were displaced,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The effect on the community was disastrous, she said, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot,” Willis Ussery said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A KQED analysis of the 1960 census reveals that the West Oakland census tracts hardest hit by eminent domain were where people of color lived — in some areas, as many as 95% of the residents were Black. Annual incomes in the development zones were also far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland where the Campilongos lived had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986231\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/240514-eminentdomain-25-bl-kqed/\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986231\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A BART train above two streets intersecting\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/240514-EMINENTDOMAIN-25-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A BART train runs along the tracks at 59th Street and Martin Luther King Jr Way in Oakland on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Berkeley residents resist BART plans\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some East Bay residents, such as Mable Howard of Berkeley, successfully altered BART’s path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Howard argued that BART’s plan to construct raised tracks through part of the city would further divide it along racial lines. Her legal challenge was highlighted in the documentary “\u003ca href=\"https://video.kqed.org/video/welcome-to-the-neighborhood-truly-ca-zag6fb/\">Welcome to the Neighborhood\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the documentary explains, in 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But BART proposed a design for the Ashby station that was slightly above ground. Howard felt that the design would further segregate the city. She teamed up with the late East Bay politician Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to successfully sue the agency to underground all their Berkeley infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground,” said attorney Matthew Weinberg in the film.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>BART spokesperson: ‘Lessons learned’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, it is hard to imagine a Bay Area without BART. People from all over the Bay Area make millions of trips on it every month. Even the aerial tracks that tower over Martin Luther King Jr. Way, where the Campilongo house used to stand, seem to blend into the background of freeways and buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost says it’s still important for the agency to acknowledge the past harms that the agency committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART now has an Office of Civil Rights and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust with the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted if not destroyed because of the building of the BART system.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"medium","align":"right","citation":"Alicia Trost, BART","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Especially when we’re building on our land, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want,” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the agency imagines future development, like building a possible second transbay tube between San Francisco and Oakland, she says they’re also developing plans to prevent the displacement of residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Trost said the uprooting of residents to create BART in the 1960s provided “lessons learned,” and mistakes that shouldn’t be repeated were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>State leaders are also looking at the long-term impact that eminent domain property transfers have had on families and communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Senator Steven Bradford, a member of California’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/reparations\">Reparations Task Force\u003c/a>, introduced a bill in February that would compensate former property owners if their parcel was taken through eminent domain, but they didn’t receive just compensation due to racism or discrimination by the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The price the Campilongos paid\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986413\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2024/05/16/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go/campilongo_contract_page_01/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11986413\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11986413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1032\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-800x1032.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1020x1316.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-160x206.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1190x1536.jpg 1190w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01-1587x2048.jpg 1587w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Campilongo_contract_Page_01.jpg 1701w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The contract the Campilongos signed with BART.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A public records request submitted by KQED reveals that the Bay Area Rapid Transit District paid Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo $25,000 for their property in North Oakland on Sept. 2, 1965. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about $245,000 today. These days, homes go for around $1 million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine and Johanne Dictor were excited to see the contract their relatives signed with BART, the physical evidence of their family history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Doesn’t that look like Nana’s handwriting?” Janine asked her mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after the initial excitement, the mood turned somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s about a lot more than what they were compensated,” Janine said. “It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community,”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The premise of using eminent domain is that individual sacrifices are warranted to build public infrastructure. However, for families like the Dictors, the construction of BART was a painful turn in their history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way. It was kind of driven apart,” her mom, Johanne, added. “That house really brought us together.”\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>\u003cbr>\nSpecial thanks to Pam Uzzell for providing parts of her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” and to KQED’s Dan Brekke for reporting support and data analysis. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne Dictor points at the grassy median dividing the six lanes of Martin Luther King Junior Way in North Oakland. An elevated BART track towers overhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I guess my grandmother’s house was right here on the, the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s grandparents, Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo were immigrants from Italy. They loved their home on what was then 59th and Grove street in Oakland … Grove is Martin Luther King Jr Way these days. They kept the house full of family, friends and, as is the Italian way … good food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> So she, she had this great kitchen downstairs where she made her ravioli. She made her sausages with her women friends. They’d come over, and all day, they’d make sausages down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And Vito grew food in the backyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janine Dictor: Ah, garden, this master gardener with this beautiful, extensive garden that he used to cook these delicious Italian meals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This was a happy time. But it didn’t last. By the time Johanne was a teenager in the early ’60s, one topic started to dominate their family dinners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> I remember, you know, be sitting at the table and they’d say, you know, they’re, they’re gonna take my house, they say we have to sell it. And we have to leave everything here, and you know, they just were devastated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ultimately, the Campilongos sold their house to BART and moved to San Leandro. Her grandfather planted a new garden, but it was never as big or as beautiful as the one in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> He’d sit on the porch like in San Leandro looking so sad, you know, (cries)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Johanne’s daughter, Janine, grew up with this family story. But she has always thought it was odd that they didn’t know more about how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> How many properties were acquired? Did anybody challenge, you know, Bart’s ability to acquire their property? What was the outcome of that? Um, yeah, just there seems like there must, there must be a pretty robust story behind all of this. And it’s just odd that we never have known what, quite what it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen Price, and today on Bay Curious the story of how families like the Campilongos were uprooted to make way for BART. Theirs is a common story — people have been displaced for large infrastructure projects time and time again all across the United States. And it’s still happening today. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Area Rapid Transit…better known as BART…is a fixture of life in the Bay Area today. But many families and businesses were displaced to build it. KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is going to help us understand how it all went down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the early ’50s, the Bay Area, like much of the country, was in a post-war building boom. New houses were going up all over the region in places like Concord and Fremont. And a big question was how folks would get around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of BART promo reel\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> State lawmakers began planning for a regional transportation system to connect the suburbs to the economic hubs of Oakland and San Francisco. There was a lot of excitement … which you can hear in this promotional video for BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>…To do this by weaving into the fabric of the Bay Area an entirely new and vastly better way of getting around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1962, voters in Alameda, Contra Costa, and San Francisco counties approved a nearly 800 million dollar bond to build the new tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BART promo reel:\u003c/strong>… Locations of lines and stations was the first step in the long planning process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But BART needed land, including in residential areas where property was already owned and inhabited by people. The Campilongos neighborhood in North Oakland was one of those areas; another was West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: When I was a girl, there were… So 7th Street and all of West Oakland was predominantly black, owned by black people. Beautiful old Victorians were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine Ussery was born in Oakland in 1939. Her family, like many Black families at the time, had come from the South in search of work and a better life. Maxine’s mother and father made the journey from Louisiana and settled in West Oakland. They found jobs at the nearby Naval Shipyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They had no problems understanding that they had to, in fact, develop their own businesses, their own services, because that’s how they lived in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: She says the West Oakland community had everything they needed…drug stores, groceries, restaurants, churches, doctors and lawyers. But starting in the 1950s, successive government infrastructure projects ripped apart the fabric of this community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They forced people to move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Government agencies demolished homes and businesses for the Nimitz Freeway in the ’50s. Then, in the following decades, they cleared more buildings to make way for Oakland’s Main Post Office and the Acorn housing projects. And then, there was BART. The Oakland Planning Department estimates that upwards of 5,000 units of housing were destroyed in West Oakland in the 1960s alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: It was like a disbursement of a, of a whole group of a whole community, not just, uh, taking the buildings, it was taking people and who had lived there and who, uh, uh, teachers, um, uh, uh, educate, you know, people who were athletes, all of them were displaced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Maxine says the effect on the community was disastrous, especially for the older folks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maxine Ussery\u003c/strong>: They were up in age, and they were moved into areas where they, that where they could afford to go with the money they were given for BART, which was not a lot. It wasn’t enough money for them to live on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Many of the infrastructure projects in West Oakland that Maxine talks about were only possible because of a legal tool known as eminent domain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: So that’s the part of the Constitution that gives government the power to come along and take people’s private property even if they don’t consent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: Radhika Rao is a professor of Law at UC San Francisco College of the Law. Eminent domain allows public agencies to buy private property at “fair market value” in order to build infrastructure that is in the public interest. Think hospitals, Public Schools, Highways, Parks, and train tracks. Radhika says without it, infrastructure projects like these might never get built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Because you could have one private property owner who says, my house stands in the way; you can’t build a highway. And then we have no highway. So, our infrastructure depends upon government having this power. It’s, it’s super important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: But Rhadika says government agencies often target areas with lower property values because they cost less.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Of course! That’s, that just makes economic sense, right? Why would government situate your infrastructure in a place where you have to pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> And the government has a long history of undervaluing properties where people of color and low-income people live and work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: And then there are also political reasons, you know, which communities have power, um, and which communities don’t, to organize against this kind of action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman\u003c/strong>: The 1960 census reveals the parts of West Oakland hit hardest by eminent domain projects were highly segregated … as much as 95% Black … with annual incomes far lower than the city average. The neighborhood in North Oakland that the Campilongos lived in had a higher median income but was also predominantly Black. Rhadika says these communities were vulnerable to eminent domain action and less likely to fight back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radhika Rao\u003c/strong>: Who has the money to hire a lawyer and go to court saying this, the compensation that you’re offering me is not just compensation? It’s not fair market value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART records show that the agency acquired approximately 2,200 properties in order to build its first 75 miles of track. Some people sold their parcels to BART willingly, but others had to be evicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of news report: \u003c/strong>This is Seventh Street on Oakland’s west side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In this KPIX news report from 1967, BART staff are evicting an elderly Black woman named Leitha Blick from the thrift store she owns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> An admittedly blighted area, directly in the path of proposed Bay Area Rapid Transit District construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> That word — blighted — is important. It’s a term that was used by urban redevelopment agencies throughout the country — including in Oakland — to describe neighborhoods that were seen as deteriorating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report:\u003c/strong> Most of the homes and businesses in this area will have to be destroyed to make room for progress, and the push of progress is not always gentle. Angry and confused, many of the residents say they can’t buy new homes with the market value prices given them for the ones they now live in. Business people face the same dilemma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In the news clip, Blick stands by with her arms crossed as workers pack her things into boxes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News report footage:\u003c/strong> Miss Blick, had you and the Bay Area Rapid Transit District reached any agreement before this happened?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> No.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> Why?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> Because, uh, the price wasn’t satisfactory.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>News reporter:\u003c/strong> You didn’t think they were offering you enough money for your merchandise?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Blick:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. Moving us out, and we had no place to go, and I didn’t think they were offering enough, no way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Blick tried to stop BART from taking her property…but ultimately lost. But there are some examples of people successfully altering BART’s plan.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nDocumentary footage:\u003c/strong> Berkeley was basically a segregated city. So, the whole of South Berkeley was pretty much a black neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>Pam Uzzell’s documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” chronicles one effort in Berkeley. It profiles Mable Howard, who argued that BART’s plan to put raised tracks through part of the city would divide it along racial lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Documentary footage: \u003c/strong>A woman who said, I won’t have The city of Berkeley, divided in half, there won’t be any other side of the tracks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> In 1966, Berkeley voters approved a tax that would pay to put BART completely underground in Berkeley. But BART proposed a design for Ashby station that was slightly above ground. So Mable Howard teamed up with Ron Dellums, then a city council member, to sue the agency. Here’s a lawyer on the case, Matthew Weinberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Matthew Weinberg:\u003c/strong> We won the case. How do we know we won the case? Go to Berkeley. You’ll see the whole thing’s underground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/strong>BART acknowledges this legacy of displacement and struggle. Here’s Chief Communications Officer Alicia Trost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost: \u003c/strong>There was a lot of generational wealth that was deeply impacted, if not destroyed, because of the building of the BART system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> BART now has an office of civil rights, and other equity initiatives that Trost says are critical to rebuilding trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> And especially when we’re building on our land, uh, we want to make sure there’s a carve-out specifically for affordable housing and that we are in a daily conversation with the community to make sure what we’re building is something that they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> As the agency imagines building a possible second transbay tube, Trost says they’re also developing anti-displacement goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alicia Trost:\u003c/strong> Which, if that’s not lessons learned, you know, I don’t know what is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> I’ve gone through multiple public records requests and dozens of deeds, right-of-way contracts, and insurance policies for this story. At the end of it all, I paid another visit to Janine, our question-asker, and her mom, Johanne. I had something for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> I actually found the contract that your grandparents signed with Bart, so here it is. And so this, you can see, like it says right-of-way contract, and it has your grandparents’ names on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, is that all they, so it was just 25,000. Is that right? Oh my God. Oh my gosh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman talking to the Dictors:\u003c/strong> We’re looking at the original contract between Vito and Elizabeth Campilongo and the Bay Area Rapid Transportation District, dated Sept. 2, 1965.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> And it looks like my grandmother’s handwriting, too, actually.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Oh, it does?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> It shows the Campilongos agreed to sell their property for $25,000. Adjusted for inflation, that’s about 245,000 dollars today. These days, homes go for around a million in that neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Doesn’t it look like Nana’s?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Not really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor: \u003c/strong>That floral?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor:\u003c/strong> Yeah, a little bit, but hers was, yeah, she had a good penmanship, Nana. Yeah,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Janine and Johanne are excited to see the physical evidence of their family history. But after the initial excitement, the mood is somber.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Dictor:\u003c/strong> Going through this process, it’s like you realize it’s like about a lot more than what they were compensated, right? It’s about the fact that they were forced into this, that they lost a lifestyle, that they lost a community, you know. So, even if they got a good price, it’s kind of like, there’s still something to mourn there right about their experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> The word progress comes up a lot when talking about these kinds of projects. The idea is that progress, the greater good, justifies the sacrifice some families have to make. But for families like the Dictors, progress could feel like a step in the wrong direction. Here’s Johanne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Johanne Dictor: \u003c/strong>After we lost that house, we lost the sense of our family in a way, it seemed like. It was kind of driven apart. Because that house really brought us together. More than the house in San Leandro, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/strong> Public infrastructure is often seen as a kind of equalizer … it’s something we all pay for and that anyone can use. But the fact is … some people had to pay more than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.The use of eminent domain led to the displacement in some of the stories we explored today. It was often used to displace communities of color to make way for various infrastructure projects around the state. As part of its reparations efforts, California is now considering a bill that would compensate people if they can prove racism or discrimination prevented them from getting just compensation. To learn more about California’s reparations efforts, check out KQED’s coverage at KQED dot org slash reparations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special Thanks to Pam Uzzell for allowing us to use clips from her documentary “Welcome to the Neighborhood” in this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Produced by Olivia Allen-Price.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Tamuna Chkareuli:\u003c/strong> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Pauline Bartolone\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Christopher Beale:\u003c/strong> And Christopher Beale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We get additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Jen Chien:\u003c/strong> Jen Chien\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/strong> Katie Sprenger\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/strong> Cesar Saldaña\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Maha Sanad\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Xorje Olivares:\u003c/strong> Xorje Olivares:\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And the whole KQED family. Have a great week, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11986396/when-bart-was-built-people-and-houses-had-to-go","authors":["11785"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8"],"tags":["news_269","news_30652","news_1764","news_2318"],"featImg":"news_11986229","label":"news_33523"},"news_11985359":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11985359","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11985359","score":null,"sort":[1715248822000]},"parent":0,"labelTerm":{},"blocks":[],"publishDate":1715248822,"format":"standard","title":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace","headTitle":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco’s Once Grand Bathing Palace | KQED","content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o4JS0d_qyY\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qgapRWmiUY\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JklqpaDdYX0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n","stats":{"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"hasAudio":true,"hasPolis":false,"wordCount":5728,"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"iframeSrcs":[],"paragraphCount":151},"modified":1715216064,"excerpt":"On San Francisco’s far western edge, Sutro Baths was once one of the city’s hottest destinations. But it was also the site of a little-known civil rights battle.","headData":{"twImgId":"","twTitle":"","ogTitle":"","ogImgId":"","twDescription":"","description":"On San Francisco’s far western edge, Sutro Baths was once one of the city’s hottest destinations. But it was also the site of a little-known civil rights battle.","title":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace | KQED","ogDescription":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Inside Sutro Baths, San Francisco's Once Grand Bathing Palace","datePublished":"2024-05-09T03:00:22-07:00","dateModified":"2024-05-08T17:54:24-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","status":"publish","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://dcs.megaphone.fm/KQINC8581019303.mp3?key=f12ca2f75249075693b11715f06ec214&request_event_id=2d9cffbf-ea54-48dd-b978-96f947e20b25","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","sticky":false,"source":"Bay Curious","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11985359/inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Standing at the Lands’ End parking lot, overlooking the ruins of Sutro Baths, it feels like the edge of the world. To the left, Point Lobos Road winds down towards the straight stretch of Ocean Beach, past the Cliff House restaurant perched atop an overlook. And out in front is the wild Pacific Ocean, crashing against a man-made seawall stretching across the bottom of the cove. A faint outline of square pools can still be seen, but it looks more like a playland for the ducks and cormorants than a place humans would want to swim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to tell now, but Sutro Baths was \u003ci>the place to be\u003c/i> at the turn of the 19th century. Seven massive baths were built into the cove, each filled with seawater and heated to different temperatures. A beautiful glass pavilion covered the pools to shield swimmers from the wind and fog. So, what happened to the grand establishment? How did it go from a glittering bathing palace to wild ruins?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand the history of Sutro Baths, we first need to learn about the man for whom they are named — Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985364\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985364\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg\" alt=\"A black cormorant spreads its wings on the remnants of a wall. The ocean crashes in the distance.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Baths-6_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seagulls, cormorants and ducks have made the remnants of the Sutro Baths their home now. The ruins are a beautiful place to explore and imagine what once stood here. \u003ccite>(Tamuna Chkareuli/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A self-made man\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Born in 1830, Adolph Sutro was a German Jewish immigrant to San Francisco. He arrived in 1850, at the height of the Gold Rush, and set up a shop selling dry goods — mostly tobacco. When news of a silver deposit in Nevada hit the newspapers, he dropped everything and headed out to work on the Comstock Lode. First, he ran a refining mill but kept thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down from above, sometimes drowning miners deep below the earth’s surface.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985371\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 394px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985371\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a white man with white hair and mutton chops whiskers.\" width=\"394\" height=\"444\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped.jpg 394w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/adolph-sutro-cropped-160x180.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 394px) 100vw, 394px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Adolph Sutro, 1830–98. He served as mayor of San Francisco from 1895–97. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A143030?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=50b41f01b154203e6a0f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sutro’s solution was to build a big tunnel that would carry water away from workers, making the conditions much safer. He opened his Sutro Tunnel in 1878 to much acclaim. Not only did it make mining safer, but it also offered an easier way to extract the silver ore and offered another escape route for miners in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada,” said Hector Falero, a former education manager for the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/upload/sutro_history.pdf\">the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He loved the “Outside Lands” at the far western edge of the city, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/index.php?title=How_Many_Cliff_Houses%3F\">near the Cliff House\u003c/a>, and bought close to 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking a nearby cove. He built his mansion there at Sutro Heights and began planning for a grand attraction in the cove itself. Just a few years later, he also bought the Cliff House and started planning to redesign it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985365\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985365\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of a massive Victorian-era structure perched on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutros-cliff-house-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After purchasing the Cliff House, Sutro rebuilt it in grand style. Soon after it opened, a fire destroyed it. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A129779?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6afb3a4aaad152445a8c&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Building Sutro Baths\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Sutro got hold of it, the cove below the Cliff House was a quiet little beach surrounded by steep cliffs. Sutro was fascinated by marine life and loved watching sea lions play on the rocks. Legend has it, that’s what gave him the idea of creating an aquarium in the cove. He first built a circular pool on the northwest end that would be filled by seawater rushing in from a large tunnel he bore through the rock. He planned to fill the aquarium pool with ocean water and sea creatures — like a man-made tidepool — and then, as the water gradually seeped through a drainage canal he built, the sea creatures would be left behind and easy to view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tunnel and pool worked so well that Sutro kept building. He refocused his efforts on building an attraction for saltwater swimming, which was booming in popularity. The round aquarium pool became a settling tank, a place for any sediment from the ocean water to separate out. He added a seawall to protect the cove from the waves and built a massive swimming pool across the entire cove. It was subdivided into seven pools, each holding water of a different temperature. Cold seawater would rush through the tunnel, past a boiler house where it would mix with very hot water, and then stream down through the various pools, getting cooler as it went. The largest pool was the coldest — the temperature of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985373\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985373\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg\" alt=\"Huge glass and steel structure covers a bathing facility with seven pools.\" width=\"700\" height=\"549\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF.jpg 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-interior-baths-OpenSF-160x125.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Inside Sutro Baths circa 1910 looking north towards the promenade. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0211.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0211\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A prospectus from the San Francisco-based Floating Sea-Bath Company touted the positive effects of seawater bathing:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>\u003ci>Pleasure is an essential item of the real bath, and among the most active of its beneficial forces. There can be no doubt that a great number of our citizens would seek to enjoy the tonic effects of sea bathing, but for the low temperatures of the water.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Sutro solved that problem. And he didn’t stop there. He built a massive pavilion over the baths to protect swimmers from cold sea air and fog. Made of iron girders, wood and glass, it was a giant white building with a 3-acre footprint. Visitors entered from above, off Point Lobos Avenue, and descended a grand stairway to the baths below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths wasn’t just a swimming facility — it was a place to be seen. There were several levels to stop and promenade, restaurants, bars, and a museum of curios Sutro had collected while traveling all over the world, including some rare mummies. For 25 cents, visitors could enter the baths, rent a bathing suit and towel, use the changing rooms and swim all day.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8o4JS0d_qyY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Sutro knew getting people out to his new attraction would be challenging since the neighborhoods near Golden Gate Park were not built up yet, and most people lived much further east. So, he waged war with the railroad companies to keep the streetcar fares low, enabling the average working person to afford a visit to the baths. This egalitarian fight won him a lot of goodwill with San Franciscans, who eventually elected him mayor in 1895. For a while, there was even a train that went along the cliff at Lands’ End, offering spectacular views of the Bay.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/9qgapRWmiUY'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>\u003cb>Sutro Baths officially open in 1896\u003c/b>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>After more than a decade of construction, the baths officially opened in 1896. They were an immediate hit. The space was big enough for an orchestra to play, and Sutro regularly hosted large events at the baths. There were competitions, concerts and diving displays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985382\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985382\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white aerial view of the massive Sutro Baths pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/aerial-view-sutros-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An aerial view shows just how massive the baths and pavilion were when finished. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130128?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=950123d10c91ec349686&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Site of an early civil rights lawsuit\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Sutro Baths advertised itself as a place for \u003ci>all San Franciscans\u003c/i> to enjoy the salubrious effects of sea bathing, but that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On July 4, 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened, John Harris, an African American waiter, paid to enter the baths with a group of his white friends. He was told he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. A week later, he tried again and was once again rebuffed. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado,” said historian and writer Elaine Elinson. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">She researched John Harris’ story for the National Park Service. \u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a year before, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/john-harris-civil-rights.htm\">California passed the Dibble Civil Rights Act, the first of its kind in the state\u003c/a>, which made it illegal to discriminate in public places based on race. Harris used the new law to challenge his treatment at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985391\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 750px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985391\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg\" alt=\"Large group of white swimmers in old fashioned swim suits.\" width=\"750\" height=\"601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298.jpg 750w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/opensfhistory_wnp4_wnp4.0298-160x128.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crowd of all-white swimmers at Sutro Baths, circa 1910. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://opensfhistory.org/Display/wnp4/wnp4.0298.jpg\">OpenSFHistory / wnp4/wnp4.0298\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A group of Black activists, known as the African American Assembly, supported Harris’ suit by paying his legal fees. They hoped this early test of the new civil rights law would give it teeth.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>A deeper history of Black activism in California\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Dibble Civil Rights Act was the result of many years of organizing by California’s Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of the people who ended up as civic leaders or church leaders were already highly experienced and skilled in the abolitionist movement,” said Susan Anderson, the history curator at the \u003ca href=\"https://caamuseum.org/\">African American Museum in Los Angeles\u003c/a>. She’s writing a book about how Black Californians have influenced civic culture and institutions going back to before statehood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was significant to Black people to have their rights enshrined,” Anderson said. “They worked together to influence Assembly Member [Henry Clay] Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s likely Black activists wrote the law, Anderson said and lobbied other legislators to pass it. At a time when racist attitudes and policies limited Black Californians to only the most menial jobs — porters, waiters, clerks — this was a tremendous feat. Black people used the connections they made through these serving jobs to push the causes important to them, Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC8581019303&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if you’re a porter or clerk in a court, and you’re an activist, you find comrades and allies and people you can network with who are powerful for your cause,” Anderson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She points out that the African American organizations of the time were very organized. Members across California met once a year to set their agenda, and then local chapters worked to implement them. Before California even became a state, they worked on issues like the right to vote, the right to testify in court, equal access to education and, of course, anti-discrimination laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Dibble Civil Rights Law passed in 1896, local groups, like the African American Assembly Club in San Francisco, started testing the law. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“John Harris won his case, but he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths,” said Elaine Elinson. “So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite this historic victory, very little changed at Sutro Baths. \u003ca href=\"http://www.outsidelands.org/sutro-baths-segregation.php\">It remained segregated in practice, if not by law\u003c/a>, until the Civil Rights era of the 1950s and ‘60s. There are cases of other non-white San Franciscans being denied entry, too, including members of the city’s large Chinese American community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is interesting to see that these cases [were] challenged and won, but often did not change public attitudes or public policy,” Elinson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>Sutro Baths’ slow decline\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985394\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985394\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of cabanas with straw roofs inside a large glass pavilion.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/inside-sutros-tropical-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro family revamped the interior of the baths several times, including this tropical version circa 1935. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130193?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=5c559fc2d23fe6107f55&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=5\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Adolph Sutro died just a few years after the baths officially opened in 1898. He was 68 years old and left Sutro Baths to his children. They continued to operate the site, even though it didn’t make much money. Sutro had sunk a lot of cash into constructing the grand facility, costing a fortune to run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1930s, when the Great Depression hit, many San Franciscans didn’t have the money for a leisure day out, and the baths began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson tried revamping the business in 1936 by covering some of the pools and building an ice skating rink. That was a popular move but it didn’t do enough to save the business. Eventually, in 1952, the Sutros announced they would close the facility. That’s when one of their competitors — George Whitney — swooped in and bought it for a bargain.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/JklqpaDdYX0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney owned \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11925112/idora-park-and-playland-at-the-beach-bay-area-amusement-parks-of-a-bygone-era\">Playland-at-the-Beach, a popular amusement park on Ocean Beach\u003c/a>. He thought he could squeeze a little more money out of Sutros and use the space to house his collection of mechanical oddities. But his family couldn’t make a go of it either and ended up selling the property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sutros finally closed for good in 1966. Just a few months later, a fire burned the grand structure to the ground. People from the neighborhood came out and watched the iconic building burn. The police suspected arson but could never prove it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11985395\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1423px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11985395\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png\" alt=\"Smoke billows from the skeleton of a building built on a cliff overlooking the ocean.\" width=\"1423\" height=\"557\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center.png 1423w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-800x313.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-1020x399.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/Sutro-fire-history-center-160x63.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1423px) 100vw, 1423px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Sutro Baths pavilion burned to the ground in 1966. Neighbors came out to watch the iconic building burn. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A130156?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=2fad4a0f6ccdbd8148f8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=6&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>About a decade later, the National Park Service bought the property for open space. The community didn’t want the park to build interpretive services at the site of the old baths, instead preferring its current state — a set of ruins that hearken back to a grand past but that are free and open for all to explore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of birds, distant waves crashing, people talking, wind\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Wow. Okay, so I’ve been to this place a few times, but never on a day quite like today. It is a stunner out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Beautiful weather, perfect May day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Hey, everyone. Olivia Allen-Price here with Katrina Schwartz, producer extraordinaire of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Hello.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And we are at Sutro Baths. So right at the entrance of Land’s End, the hiking trail, if you’ve done that. We’re looking at the Cliff House to our left, a long-time-running restaurant, currently not running, but hopefully will come back again soon. But down in this cove is really why we are here. There is something pretty interesting down there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>It looks like a massive pool, except the edges of it are more like a pond with moss growing and ducks and seagulls. People are walking out on that retaining wall, but it has this air of mystery because you can tell something was once here, but now nature is reclaiming it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Today on Bay Curious, we’re going on a field trip to a spot many of you have been requesting over the years! We’ll learn why and how Sutro Baths were built, what visiting would have felt like back in the day, and while researching this story, we stumbled upon a lesser known piece of civil rights history — so we’ll be sharing that. This story first appeared in the Bay Curious book — available now wherever books are sold. We’re diving in — literally — just ahead on Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has a lot of historic places, many of which have been rebuilt or repurposed in modern ways. But the ruins of Sutro Baths remain wild and untouched. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz brings us the story of the rise and fall of this iconic bathing palace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> To understand why these somewhat sparse ruins have captivated the imaginations of locals and visitors alike, we need to learn a bit more about the man behind them. Adolph Sutro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was born in Germany in 1830 to a Jewish family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero is a former education manager for the Golden Gate Recreation Area — the National Park that manages the Sutro Baths site now. He says Sutro arrived in San Francisco as a young man in 1850, right as the Gold Rush was kicking off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He’s living in San Francisco and mostly selling tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many of his customers were miners, and he learned as much as he could about the business. When news of a massive silver discovery in Nevada hit the papers, he decided to join the fray and try to make his fortune on the Comstock Lode. He first opened a refining mill, but he’d long been thinking about one of mining’s biggest problems — surface water. It would seep down, sometimes drowning miners. Adolph Sutro’s solution was to build a huge tunnel deep in the mine that ran downhill and carried water away from the workmen. The Sutro Tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>He was able to eventually patent this and became kind of like a mythical figure among the silver miners in that part of Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro made millions on his invention. He returned to San Francisco a rich man and began investing in real estate. He especially liked the wind-swept “Outside Lands” near the Pacific Ocean. Not many people lived out there yet, but Sutro wanted to change that. In 1881, he bought 22 acres of oceanfront property overlooking the Cliff House, which was already operating as an inn and restaurant. Sutro would buy the Cliff House just a few years later and incorporate it into his grand vision for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>Where he saw a gap was in bathing or swimming.\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In the late 1800s, most people lived crowded into boarding houses and rented rooms in downtown San Francisco. Saltwater swimming was all the rage, a welcome respite from these cramped interiors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>There was some sort of like concept of health associated with Pacific waters. But it’s very cold. And so the need that Adolfo Sutro saw was, hey, I would love to create some baths and I would love to create them to be sort of temperature controlled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro put his engineering brain to work designing a series of pools and tunnels that would harness the tides to create a swimming facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first problem to solve was how to bring seawater into a protected pool away from crashing ocean waves. So, Sutro did what he did best. He built a massive tunnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: \u003c/b>The water would rush in at high tide and be able to fill the pools almost instantly. This was one of the technological aspects that was incredible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>He demonstrated the system to reporters nearly a decade \u003ci>before\u003c/i> the baths would officially open. An article in the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> reads:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice-over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/b>At great expense, a tunnel was excavated, 8 feet high and 15 feet long, through the solid rock. It is through this tunnel that the water comes at extreme high tide and for about two hours before and after.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Over the next many years, Sutro transformed this quiet cove into a massive engineering project. He built a seawall across the entire span to keep the waves out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He lined most of the cove with concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini is the author of \u003ci>Sutro’s Glass Palace: The Story of Sutro Baths.\u003c/i> He presented his research to the San Francisco Historical Society.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So he literally subdivided the cove into what he called swimming tanks. We’d call ‘em pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were seven pools in all. Seawater would rush in through the tunnel and mix with extremely hot water coming out of a boiler house. Then, the rush of water would flow into the pools, each a different temperature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The warmest pool was about 85, 86 degrees, maybe up to 90. And then they were sequentially cooler until the biggest pool that was ocean temperature. They didn’t bother to heat it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>But that’s not all. Anyone who’s been out to Lands End knows how cold and windy it can be, so Sutro decided to build a huge glass pavilion to cover the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>So, instead of an open-air swimming establishment, you ended up with the world’s largest indoor swimming complex.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>When it was finished, the baths had a footprint of 3 acres, about the same size as the ferry building — 10,000 people could pack inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>People entered, and they descended a flight of stairs. The first level that you hit is called a promenade level, and the promenade level is where a lot of the museum displays were. You walked under a giant vestibule and then down a grand staircase that led you all the way down to the water on either side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>After more than a decade of construction, the baths formally opened in 1896. The \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> described the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>Nearly 7,000 people gathered at the immense pavilion yesterday to witness the dedication of the magnificent structure, which Adolph Sutro has built on his land near the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>There were restaurants and bars, curiosities from around the world — like mummies and a stuffed polar — space for a large band to play, an amphitheater and lots of areas to promenade. It was a place to be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Those were colored panes of glass in the domes overhead so that sunlight gave multicolored, rippling effects on the water, especially when thousands and thousands of people at a time, making waves in the water, kids screams, music playing. It was an overwhelming sensation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutro wanted the working classes to be able to enjoy a day at his leisure palace. … and to spend their money there. … so he pushed the railroads to keep the streetcar fares to Outside Lands low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero: He had this sort of egalitarian slant.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Hector Falero says his populist streak made him popular with the people. They even elected him mayor!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Hector Falero:\u003c/b> He wanted people Of various class backgrounds to be able to access the place equitably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For 25 cents, visitors could rent a bathing suit, use the lockers, visit the attractions, swim and stay all day. Advertising campaigns at the time said Sutro Baths welcomed ALL San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that wasn’t actually true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Somber music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>One day, a group of friends took the streetcar from downtown out to enjoy a day at the new attraction. It was the fourth of July 1897, just a few months after the baths officially opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellnson: \u003c/b>John Harris, who is an African American man, went with his several white friends to the baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Writer and historian Elaine Elinson researched this history for the National Park Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>He was a waiter in San Francisco, and he paid his $0.25. And his white friends got their bathing suits and went in the pools. And he was told he could not go into the pools. Only his white friends could go into the pools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> John Harris tried to enter the baths again a week later. Again, he was not allowed to swim because of the color of his skin. So, he sued the Sutro family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>To challenge the former mayor of San Francisco really took a lot of chutzpah, bravado.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Harris used a new California law called The Dibble Civil Rights Act to challenge his treatment at the baths. The law prohibited discrimination in public places based on race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>That all came out of black California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan Anderson is the history curator for the California African American Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>It was significant to black people to have their rights enshrined. They worked together to influence Assembly Member Dibble to sponsor the Dibble Act, California’s first civil rights act, in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Many Black migrants to California were already skilled leaders in the abolitionist movement. Racist policies and attitudes limited them to low-paying jobs — hotel waiters, railroad porters, clerks — but through their work, they got to know powerful men like Dibble.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Anderson: \u003c/b>Enterprising people make the most of it. So, if you’re a porter or clerk in a court. And you’re an activist; you find comrades and allies and people you can network with people who are powerful for your cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Black activists likely \u003ci>wrote\u003c/i> the Dibble Civil Rights Act and lobbied other legislators to pass it. Then, local groups like the African American Assembly in San Francisco tested the law, trying to give it teeth. That’s what John Harris did at Sutro Baths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>We don’t have any exact testimony from John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Historian Elaine Elinson again. She says the court records burned in the 1906 fire. And mainstream newspapers of the day didn’t bother interviewing the central figure in the case, John Harris himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Ellinson: \u003c/b>I have to say that the mainstream press was really vitriolic against John Harris and the judge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elaine pieced together her account from lawyers’ notes, newspaper articles and personal letters. She says the African American Assembly paid Harris’ legal fees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>John Harris won his case, but, you know, he only earned $100 for the two times he was refused entrance to the baths. So it wasn’t a monetary victory, but it was a very, very important civil rights victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Sutro family and Bath managers were unrepentant. They continued to make racist remarks that the mainstream newspapers published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elaine Elinson: \u003c/b>It is interesting to see that these cases challenged and won but often did not change public attitudes or public policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Two years after Sutro Baths opened, Adolph Sutro died. He was 68. He left his estate and properties to his children, who continued to run the baths. And the attraction remained incredibly popular, but the Sutro family was ready to unload the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>They kept trying to sell it. No one wanted to buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini says Sutro sunk a lot of cash into constructing the baths, and they cost a fortune to run. His children wanted to recoup that investment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>In 1913, the family tried to get the city to buy it. No dice. The city turned it down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Then, in the ’30s, the Great Depression hit. Many San Franciscans didn’t have money for a leisure day at the baths, and slowly, the facilities began to fall into disrepair. Adolph Sutro’s grandson was in charge at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>He decided to rebuild part of the baths and turn it into an indoor ice skating rink, and it opened in 1936 and it was immensely popular. Immediately popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>John Martini remembers going there as a kid in the 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>The ice rink was actually quite dark inside. It turned out that all that great glass. It tended to melt the ice. So, they intentionally blanked out the glass roof over the ice skating rink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>In 1952, the Sutro family announced they were closing the facility. It just cost too much to run. That’s when one of their competitors, George Whitney, swooped in and bought it for a bargain. Whitney owned Playland-at-the-Beach, the popular amusement park on Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>George Whitney revamped the baths one more time. He recognized that there was still a few nickels to be made out of the old place, and that he would be the perfect place for him to display all of his personal collections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Antique carriages, historic photographs, pinball machines and other novelties that can now be found in the Musee Mecanique started out at Sutros.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Much of what was in Sutro still exists. It’s just moved all over the world now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Sutros finally closed for good in the 1960s. A \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em> article marks the occasion:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper excerpt: \u003c/b>The second half of the 20th century at last caught up with an old San Francisco legend. Sutro Baths, created 70 years ago, closed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>The Whitney family sold the Sutro Bath property to a developer who planned to build condominiums on the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Martini: \u003c/b>Demolition began in early June of 1966. And on June 26, 1966, a very convenient fire broke out that, in one long afternoon, destroyed the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Police suspected arson but could never prove it. In any case, the fire destroyed the building much faster than work crews ever could. People from the neighborhood came out to watch as the iconic white pavilion burned to the ground. Sutros creation up in smoke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves, birds singing, the crunching of footsteps\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Honestly, I can almost imagine what it looked like to Sutro when he came here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> Yeah?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, like, with the beach out past the retaining wall and the big rock out there, you can almost imagine him, like, walking on the beach. More than 100 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> I mean, I can definitely understand how somebody would see this. And if you had the money to buy it, think this must be mine! Once you kind of get down closer to the baths, as you look up, you can really get a sense of where the rest of the building used to be. If you look up at the hillside that’s kind of underneath the Cliff house, there’s a number of just like slabs of concrete that probably indicate different levels of what was once here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Clearly man-made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah. All right. So we’ve made it down to the ruins, and we’re standing on the retaining wall. That really is a wall between two worlds. On one side, we have the wild Pacific battering the coastline. And on the other side of the wall, the world that Sutro built, which these days looks more like a home for the birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Yeah, this may be a swimming hole for the birds now, but standing here on the wall, you could almost imagine diving in, back in the 1920s, in your really heavy bathing suit, with a slide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>And how majestic it would have been to be able to swim and also look at the ocean at the same time. But it was a complicated story. This wasn’t an amazing space for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Right. It’s got a nostalgic element to it for some people, a lot of happy memories. But for other people, this place is a symbol of pain and rejection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Now I can’t help but notice. But there are not condominiums here, as was once the plan. What happened with that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Well, so after the fire, the property kind of just languished for about a decade. Then, the National Park Service bought it, and they turned it into open space. And they asked San Franciscans what they wanted done with the new park. And people basically said they wanted to leave it as it was — ruins. Something that they could explore on their own terms, not interpreted with any park signs or pathways or anything like that. Just a place you could explore, which is what we’re doing right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>In a way, that’s really the most perfect ending for this story, because it’s still an attraction people come to for its beauty, for the experience of being here. But now it’s a truly public space that’s free and open for everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode of Bay Curious was made by…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene): \u003c/b>Our engineer, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Ellen Price. Extra special thanks to our field recording team this week…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamuna Chkareuli (in scene):\u003c/b> Tamuna Chkareuli\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lusen Mendel (in scene):\u003c/b> Lusen Mendel\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/b> Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price (in scene):\u003c/b> And me, Olivia Allen-Price. We had a blast at Sutro Baths. If you haven’t been, go check it out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Lots of folks to thank this week, including the San Francisco Historical Society, for letting us use John Martini’s presentation. The people behind this podcast include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jen Chien:\u003c/b> Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cesar Saldaña:\u003c/b> Cesar Saldaña\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Sprenger:\u003c/b> Katie Sprenger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad:\u003c/b> Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Holly Kernan:\u003c/b> Holly Kernan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> This story first appeared in the Bay Curious Book, which has just celebrated its one-year birthday of being out in the world. To celebrate, we’ve got a sweet deal for listeners of this podcast for the month of May. You can buy the e-book for $1.99. I mean, that’s almost free, right? We’ll pop some links in our show notes on how you can get that deal, or you can always drop by your local bookstore and pick up the beautiful, colorful paperback copy. Whichever you choose, we love you for it. Thanks. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11985359/inside-sutro-baths-san-franciscos-once-grand-bathing-palace","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_223","news_28250","news_8"],"tags":["news_4750","news_34029","news_6627","news_34028","news_22761"],"featImg":"news_11985361","label":"source_news_11985359"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. 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Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. 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On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. 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For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us","airtime":"SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm","meta":{"site":"news","source":"wnyc"},"link":"/radio/program/on-the-media","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/","rss":"http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"}},"our-body-politic":{"id":"our-body-politic","title":"Our Body Politic","info":"Presented by KQED, KCRW and KPCC, and created and hosted by award-winning journalist Farai Chideya, Our Body Politic is unapologetically centered on reporting on not just how women of color experience the major political events of today, but how they’re impacting those very issues.","airtime":"SAT 6pm-7pm, SUN 1am-2am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Our-Body-Politic-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://our-body-politic.simplecast.com/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kcrw"},"link":"/radio/program/our-body-politic","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-body-politic/id1533069868","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9feGFQaHMxcw","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/4ApAiLT1kV153TttWAmqmc","rss":"https://feeds.simplecast.com/_xaPhs1s","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Our-Body-Politic-p1369211/"}},"pbs-newshour":{"id":"pbs-newshour","title":"PBS NewsHour","info":"Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.","airtime":"MON-FRI 3pm-4pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"pbs"},"link":"/radio/program/pbs-newshour","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/","rss":"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"}},"perspectives":{"id":"perspectives","title":"Perspectives","tagline":"KQED's series of of daily listener commentaries since 1991","info":"KQED's series of of daily listener commentaries since 1991.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Perspectives-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"/perspectives/","meta":{"site":"radio","source":"kqed","order":"15"},"link":"/perspectives","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"}},"planet-money":{"id":"planet-money","title":"Planet Money","info":"The economy explained. 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The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.","airtime":"SAT 4pm-5pm","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/reveal","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal/id886009669","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/Reveal-p679597/","rss":"http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"}},"says-you":{"id":"says-you","title":"Says You!","info":"Public radio's game show of bluff and bluster, words and whimsy. 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